Flapped breast pockets: Their Aesthetics

[Testudo_Aubreii]

Hello All:

There is little discussion on the clothing fora of flapped breast pockets. This is perhaps unsurprising, since flapped breast pockets are very rare on today's civilian tailored undercoats, and also quite rare on civilian outercoats. But it does not change the fact that apart from the famous LL thread on a tweed coat by Frank Shattuck with a flapped breast pocket, I do not think there is a single thread on the clothing fora devoted to the topic. (There may be discussion of this feature on military clothing fora, but I am unfamiliar with those fora.)

I hope to start a discussion of the flapped breast pocket. IMO, it is an elegant detail which can make a sport coat or even a suit a bit more casual and easygoing. But what are your opinions? When, if ever, do flapped breast pockets on sport coats or suit coats look good? Why are they so much rarer than unflapped breast pockets?

Here are some images to get us thinking. We begin with flapped patch breast pockets with buttons. These are the standard in contemporary military service uniform ("walking-out dress"), and have been since the end of World War I. But they are also found in civilian dress.

I. Flapped patch with button:

(http://www.competitionplus.com/2006_02/ ... sox_13.jpg)


(http://www.inah.gob.mx/images/stories/B ... rranza.jpg)


(http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2 ... 151208.jpg)


II. Flapped patch without button. These seem rare.

http://www.ivy-style.com/wp-content/upl ... ngrock.jpg

An Arnys model with inverted pleat on the pocket:

(http://mademoiselleaparis.com/wp-conten ... 112_02.jpg)

One from Sator's collection of images:
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/in ... st&p=24536

One for sale:
http://www.retrotogo.com/2008/12/1930s-style-gen.html


III. Flapped welt with button:

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhflr ... o1_400.jpg)


(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/3933 ... b64948.jpg)


(http://mexicomystic.files.wordpress.com ... bregon.jpg)


(http://www.mexicoenfotos.com/fotos/MX12182378883358.jpg)

Another from Sator's collection:
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/in ... st&p=24617

And another:
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/in ... st&p=24393


IV. Flapped welt without button:
On Cary grant:
http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/viewtopi ... 8025#p8025

On Moore Bond:
http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/foru ... ost1220271

On Moore in the Saint, with two breast pockets:

(http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/wp-conte ... tedSC3.jpg)


(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_laok2 ... o1_500.jpg)

Another from Sator:
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/in ... ost&p=1348

And another:
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/in ... ost&p=1664


(http://denverbespoke.com/wp-content/upl ... otBLOG.jpg)


(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAyNFg2ODk=/ ... ~60_3.JPG)


(http://www.mycustomtailor.com/images/sh ... h_look.jpg)

What are your opinions? There are other details one could consider, for example pleated pockets, whether box pleats or inverted pleats, as on the Arnys coat. But I think that's enough for now.

[Concordia]

The middle-class lawyer in Downton Abbey had one on his work suit(s).

I've specified one for a tweed jacket that is in the works now. No idea if it will be a good or lousy idea, but it's worth trying once.

[davidhuh]

Dear Testudo_Aubreii,

thank you for opening this thread and posting the pictures.

When I saw the coat by Mr Frank Shattuck, I thought "very interesting". Now I'm waiting for the occasion and cloth to have it made up in this style.

cheers, david

[Testudo_Aubreii]

Thank you, david. Hopefully this thread was helpful. I'm planning to order one myself sooner or later. I'm debating whether to try it with an action back and a half-belt.

Concordia, I hope you're pleased with the results. Did you order a buttoning flap or non-buttoning? Patch pocket or welt?

[Concordia]

Non-buttoning, welt. A lower notch on the lapel so it can be flipped up to close and button like a cold-weather Nehru jacket. (I have a large collar size.)

[DFR]

They look awful - not for me at all.

[rodes]

Not for me. I find them distracting on all save military coats where they are simply maintaining the tradition of what had and may still have some function.

[Costi]

For REAL sports coats (e.g. a hunting jacket viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10705), when a lot of action is involved, flaps can be useful, as things tend to fall out of breast pockets when you bend over (particularly if patch, in my experience). Also fine on some shirt jackets and safari shirts or overshirts. But on a "sporty" tweed jacket that only sees as much action as walking in a park or visiting some gallery on a Sunday afternoon...
I was wondering where this idea comes from, that adding non-functional details makes a garment more casual or easygoing. It's true that garments meant for casual pursuits have a bit more going on (pockets, tabs, action backs, belts etc.) because they are needed, but going the other way round and putting "casual" details on a normal garment not meant for real action doesn't seem to do much good. A simple coat is a lot more versatile and how casual it looks depends on how you wear it.

[Testudo_Aubreii]

Interesting question, Costi. I think it comes from the idea that the more you add to a garment details which look like they're intended for use (e.g., holding things (pockets), closing up fabric (working buttons), opening fabric (action pleats, say), the more casual it makes the garment. Generally, the more a garment is busy with what we could call "functional detail": detail which looks as though it could have a use--as opposed to "decorative detail", say, gold braid, silk facings, silk trim)--the more casual a garment. Why? Because it's (at least apparently) more useful. I suppose this is undergirded by a kind of Thorstein Veblen-like position that a garment is more dressy/formal the less its apparent uses, and conversely. All else equal, a woman's lace shawl is more dressy than a woman's wool shawl, since the wool will apparently do a better job than the lace of keeping the shoulders warm.

Anyway, that's the best I can do right now.

[Rowly]

Do you want to casually peel your orange with a fine ivory handled pen knife...or a swiss army knife, complete with every tool possible, including one to take stones out of horses' hooves?

[hectorm]

A simple coat is a lot more versatile and how casual it looks depends on how you wear it.

Another amen from this pew to Costi´s always inspired and sensible preaching.
If you want to reduce the versatility of your jacket in 50%, just add a flap to the breast pocket (75% if you also add a button through or a pleat; 99% if you add an aide-de-camp braid).
Although -from the strictly aesthetical point of view- I don´t dislike the look of the jackets in The Darjeeling Limited guys pictured above, I feel like something is missing and at the same time, something is in excess.
I own a dark blue linen jacket with a flapped breast pocket. Since I´m an old fashioned chap I wear pocket squares all the time and find myself tucking that flap inside for the touch of color and texture to show (which IMO defeats the purpose of the flap, unless you say that is precisely a proof of versatility). The alternative of leaving the flap out, and wearing the pocket square cascading down from under the flap, did not improve my trustworthy guy image.

[Costi]

What happens with the appearance of function, in my opinion, is that the "appearance" part tends to prevail in perception. That is, you feel that something "wants" to be something else that it is not. I feel less inadequate putting a real safari shirt over my shoulders as an overshirt just for a weekend trip, than having a fine coat made with just one or two details that "hint" at a purpose it was obviously not meant for (and then add a tie, a silk pocket square and elegant shoes to it...). I find it hard to appreciate pure aesthetics when I have to swallow pretense first. I much prefer the beauty of truth, of authenticity (as much as that is possible, we all sin...) - for instance, I would (and do) put a collar tab on a heavy tweed coat, where I am most likely to use it (and I do), but not on a casual jacket in linen and certainly not on the coat of a leisure fresco suit.
On the other hand, I think there are kinds of coats where a welt breast pocket would look out of place - like that hunting coat Michael posted (linked above). In some garments everything is function and things added for "beauty" seem to spoil this strong cohesion of purposefulness (what would a pocket square be doing in the breast pocket of a hunting coat like that?!).
Of course this cannot be an absolute principle in dress, except if we revolutionize it entirely - what are buttons doing on coat sleeves, since we never use them, even if the buttonholes are functional?, one might rightly reply. However, I think we can at least strive not to tip this delicate balance too much.
Rowley, yes - poor orange! - and thank you hectorm, that sounds like a war between you and that flap

[alden]

I have only seen one I really liked on a sportscoat and that was made by Frank Shattuck.

Costi has covered the essential points very well. A young bespeaker always seems to want to festoon his clothes with dodads he will later loathe.

Cheers

[Testudo_Aubreii]

Interesting that the majority here seem to think that flapped breast is generally a mistake on anything except a coat meant for real sporting use, safari jackets or shirt jackets, or military uniform. Here is what Costi called "a "sporty" tweed jacket that only sees as much action as walking in a park or visiting some gallery on a Sunday afternoon."

http://media.photobucket.com/image/rund ... 78_008.jpg

Does the flapped breast with button hurt the look? Myself, I think it's just right for a cold-weather stroll in a suburban park or an easy ramble in country fields in dry weather or drinks at the country club. I do agree that rus in urbe garments (country fabrics with city styling) are elegant and versatile, but what about when you are in the suburbs and want something more sporty than rus in urbe, or what about when you are in the country but (a) don't want full-blooded country sporting gear and (b) rus in urbe is too urbe?

[Pssst]

For your consideration: an odd jacket made by Scholte for the Duke of Windsor in 1947. With flapped breast pocket.