Gents, would you be so kind as to entertain a couple of questions from someone wanting to dip his toe into bespoke?
The prices above don't seem extraordinary in light of a number of OTR and MTM suits easily pushing the $3000 barrier, especially for NYC bespoke tailoring. I take it "CMT" designates something similar to COM in the furniture business; that is, the customer provides his own fabric and its cost is borne independently of the suit's fabrication costs. If that's correct then I'm curious as to the 'grade' of fabric used in the 'base' prices of the suits listed above. By grade I mean, I suppose, would most base-grade cloths be of acceptable/desirable quality or would one typically upgrade the cloth at an added expense? If so, how much money, on a percentage basis, would one expect to pay for an upgraded fabric within reason? I realize the sky is the limit, but if a suit costs $4,000 for a standard fabric, would most customers be happy with the standard? Or would most customers order a suit that costs 25% more?
What kind of yardage is used in a typical two-piece suit? I'm a 42, and with bespoke I'm guessing I'd be between a regular and a long. What width are the typical goods? 54"? Probably not...
What is the 'Certified Artisan' designation on some of the tailors' prices?
Thank you.
my trip to NYC
Most London shops will only start adding to the price when you get to Super 100s wool or more exotic cloths, such as cashmeres and so on.
That leaves for your use the entire world of excellent worsteds, basic flannels, and tweeds which will be almost all you want for everyday wear. The standard Lessers, Smiths, Holland&Sherry cloths, for example. All fine stuff, no need to apologize at all.
I'd imagine that most of the New York shops would be similar, but pricing customs may vary a bit there.
For a suit, you're probably looking at 4--4.5 meters.
That leaves for your use the entire world of excellent worsteds, basic flannels, and tweeds which will be almost all you want for everyday wear. The standard Lessers, Smiths, Holland&Sherry cloths, for example. All fine stuff, no need to apologize at all.
I'd imagine that most of the New York shops would be similar, but pricing customs may vary a bit there.
For a suit, you're probably looking at 4--4.5 meters.
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Mark Seitelman
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The "Certified Artisan" designation is described fully under the "Features" section to the right.
"CMT" means "Cut, make & trim." That is, the tailor is charging mostly for the service of making and fitting the coat. Though "trimmings" (canvas and padding and thread, etc.) are provided by him. You bring the cloth. "COM" = "Customer's own material" and in the tailoring world amounts to much the same thing.
Concordia's experience jibes with my own. In London, a tailor's starting price covers almost anything most of us would want to buy. Additional charges kick in with the high-grade Supers and specialty cloth like cashmere.
Things are a little different in New York. I suppose that's partly because cloth simply costs more over here. We have to pay duties, the distributor's markup, etc. Also, the differential between various cloths is greater. On Savile Row, the wholesale cost of (say) a Minnis Rangoon and a Lesser Superfine Tropical may be so close that it makes no sense for the tailors to charge varying amounts. In New York, the differential may be high enough to justify charging more for the more expensive cloth.
Also, tailors in New York typcially build in a cloth markup. So whatever the distributor's price to them is, they multiply by two and add that to their CMT price. You can nonetheless get good cloth at a tailor's base price. But the selection will be more limited than it is in London. Lesser worsteds (say) are typcially going to cost a couple of hundred bucks more, for instance . You start to really bleed with the Supers and the worsted cashmeres, etc.
Suitings are typically 60" wide. Four yards of that will make almost anyone a two-piece suit. If you are 6'6" or more, maybe not. If you're a 42 between R and L, you could even get away with 3.5 yards; perhaps not if it's a really large plaid. Experienced cutters will order the minimum amount, knowing that they can get more in a pinch. If you're buying the buying the cloth yourself, you might as well get 4, however, just to be safe. You never know if you will be able to get more, should the need arise.
Concordia's experience jibes with my own. In London, a tailor's starting price covers almost anything most of us would want to buy. Additional charges kick in with the high-grade Supers and specialty cloth like cashmere.
Things are a little different in New York. I suppose that's partly because cloth simply costs more over here. We have to pay duties, the distributor's markup, etc. Also, the differential between various cloths is greater. On Savile Row, the wholesale cost of (say) a Minnis Rangoon and a Lesser Superfine Tropical may be so close that it makes no sense for the tailors to charge varying amounts. In New York, the differential may be high enough to justify charging more for the more expensive cloth.
Also, tailors in New York typcially build in a cloth markup. So whatever the distributor's price to them is, they multiply by two and add that to their CMT price. You can nonetheless get good cloth at a tailor's base price. But the selection will be more limited than it is in London. Lesser worsteds (say) are typcially going to cost a couple of hundred bucks more, for instance . You start to really bleed with the Supers and the worsted cashmeres, etc.
Suitings are typically 60" wide. Four yards of that will make almost anyone a two-piece suit. If you are 6'6" or more, maybe not. If you're a 42 between R and L, you could even get away with 3.5 yards; perhaps not if it's a really large plaid. Experienced cutters will order the minimum amount, knowing that they can get more in a pinch. If you're buying the buying the cloth yourself, you might as well get 4, however, just to be safe. You never know if you will be able to get more, should the need arise.
Thank you, gentlemen. I cannot locate a "Feature Section" so either I'm missing something or iit is another 'Members Only" function...
The world of bespoke is somewhat daunting, to say the least. I don't want to try the Members' patience with simple questions but one more arises from your note, Mr. Manton: For an American, wouldn't similar duties prevail when bringing home finished British clothing--making the cloth cost similar in the long run? Or maybe not.... I remember a number of years ago a Japanese company avoiding some expensive duties on blue jeans by making a very crude and cheap jacket importing the ensemble as a 'suit.'
The world of bespoke is somewhat daunting, to say the least. I don't want to try the Members' patience with simple questions but one more arises from your note, Mr. Manton: For an American, wouldn't similar duties prevail when bringing home finished British clothing--making the cloth cost similar in the long run? Or maybe not.... I remember a number of years ago a Japanese company avoiding some expensive duties on blue jeans by making a very crude and cheap jacket importing the ensemble as a 'suit.'
Goods purchased and brought home by American travellers are exempt from duty up to a certain level. Also, not every private customer of Savile Row goes to the trouble to pay the duty he does owe on British made goods he brings home. (I trust no one is shocked by this revelation.)
Cloth importers, however, have no choice but to pay. They also have no exemption. And they need to make a profit too, hence their additional mark-up. The result is that the wholesale price of British cloth -- what tailors pay per yard -- is substantially higher in the US than in the UK.
Cloth importers, however, have no choice but to pay. They also have no exemption. And they need to make a profit too, hence their additional mark-up. The result is that the wholesale price of British cloth -- what tailors pay per yard -- is substantially higher in the US than in the UK.
For a comparison of "CMT" costs on Savile Row, these are the prices quoted for a 3-piece SB suit:
Welsh & Jefferies £2500
Henry Poole £2303.43
Kilgour £2996.25
Dege £2260
Richard Anderson £2855
These prices include tax and the recommendation was to allow 4 metres of fabric.
Welsh & Jefferies £2500
Henry Poole £2303.43
Kilgour £2996.25
Dege £2260
Richard Anderson £2855
These prices include tax and the recommendation was to allow 4 metres of fabric.
One more thing: your basic premise is correct: the differential between the actual cost of a suit in NY and London is not huge. The cheapest of the big SR houses charges foreigners (i.e., not including VAT) 2,000 GBP for a two-piece with basic cloth. Depending on the exchange rate, that is anywhere from $3,500 to $4,000 -- in line with what the top NYC tailors charge. Some SR houses charge even more. The smaller guys charge around 1,500 GBP. That's slightly less than most of the New York guys, but not deeply so.
What I was trying to get accross in my earlier post was that the pricing structure tends to be different in NY and SR. In NY, if you look at ten different books, you might be quoted 8 or 9 or even 10 different prices. In SR, you might be quoted only 1 or 2. The floor price of a SR house just covers a much wider range of cloth.
Also, the CMT discount in New York is more substantial -- usually at least several hundred dollars. In SR, as I understand it, the discount is mostly negligible, and some houses don't offer a CMT dicount at all.
What I was trying to get accross in my earlier post was that the pricing structure tends to be different in NY and SR. In NY, if you look at ten different books, you might be quoted 8 or 9 or even 10 different prices. In SR, you might be quoted only 1 or 2. The floor price of a SR house just covers a much wider range of cloth.
Also, the CMT discount in New York is more substantial -- usually at least several hundred dollars. In SR, as I understand it, the discount is mostly negligible, and some houses don't offer a CMT dicount at all.
Thank you all for your responses. Most helpful. I see I have a lot to learn to undaunt myself. Looking forward to the journey.
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Mark Seitelman
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Two big factors in the higher costs of imported English cloth in the USA are 1) the duty and 2) the exclusive agency deals.
The cloth costs are cheaper in Engliand because the stuff is made there. A Savile Row tailor would buy direct from Lessers or Smiths. In comparison, an American tailor must buy the same cloth through one of the exclusive USA agents, such as Jodek for Lessers and Isles Textiles for Smiths. Hence, the cloth costs more in the USA because there is the additional "middleman."
The cloth costs are cheaper in Engliand because the stuff is made there. A Savile Row tailor would buy direct from Lessers or Smiths. In comparison, an American tailor must buy the same cloth through one of the exclusive USA agents, such as Jodek for Lessers and Isles Textiles for Smiths. Hence, the cloth costs more in the USA because there is the additional "middleman."
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