Music of the Day

Discuss travel, watches, gastronomy, wines, boats and all other aspects of the Elegant life
Costi
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Sun May 06, 2012 7:32 pm

Sunday evening fun: the naughty trout :D
(Franz Schoeggl)

Die Forelle (The trout), Franz Schubert - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVuLSanT ... ure=relmfu
Mozart: Eine kleine Nachtforelle - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad2MUm0d ... ure=relmfu
Weber: Der Freifisch - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDRWqlfd ... ure=relmfu
Wagner: Fischerchor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5bDxgJq ... ure=relmfu
Forella Italiana - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3uDwq_T ... ure=relmfu
Wolga-Forelle - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw3mugVr ... ure=relmfu
Fischfang mit Lis(z)t (Fishing with a trick) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSkHijRA ... ure=relmfu
hectorm
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:12 pm

Costi, you really made me enjoy this otherwise bland Sunday afternoon. Wonderful and playful collection you put together.
How can I repay you? What would you think of a Schubert's Trout with a quintet formed by the following dream team:
Daniel Barenboin on piano
Pinchas Zuckerman on viola
Zubin Mehta on bass (trying to keep up reading his sheets)
Jacqueline Du Pre on cello
and Itzhak Perlman on violin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63oyKi6f ... re=related
Last edited by hectorm on Sun May 06, 2012 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
davidhuh
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:14 pm

Costi wrote:Sunday evening fun: the naughty trout :D
(Franz Schoeggl)

Die Forelle (The trout), Franz Schubert - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVuLSanT ... ure=relmfu
Mozart: Eine kleine Nachtforelle - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad2MUm0d ... ure=relmfu
Weber: Der Freifisch - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDRWqlfd ... ure=relmfu
Wagner: Fischerchor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5bDxgJq ... ure=relmfu
Forella Italiana - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3uDwq_T ... ure=relmfu
Wolga-Forelle - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw3mugVr ... ure=relmfu
Fischfang mit Lis(z)t (Fishing with a trick) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSkHijRA ... ure=relmfu
Dearest Costi,

this is too much German humour (does it exist?) for a Sunday evening! :shock:
I need a whisky now...

Dear Hectorm: most elegant reply! Thank you, this is beautiful :)

cheers, david
Costi
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Tue May 08, 2012 5:53 am

Thank you, hectorm, what a surprise!

David, prost!

Image
Costi
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Tue May 08, 2012 6:08 am

DonB wrote:My favourite reading of Beethovens ninth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqNp43GhF5o

29 July 1951
Wilhelm Furtwängler
Chor & Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele

Bass Vocals – Otto Edelmann
Contralto Vocals – Elisabeth Höngen
Soprano Vocals – Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
Tenor Vocals – Hans Hopf
Nice choice, DonB! :)
Furtwängler was once in London when, after listening to a Wagner recording of his own, exclaimed: "For God's sake, these are not my tempi! I have never directed so slowly!". The microphone, especially with the technology of the fifties, takes out one third of the harmonics of the sounds, thus emptying a whole range of perception that justifies the tempo. That we can still be amazed today by Furtwängler's recordings is in itself amazing and perhaps imagination collaborates a lot, but imagine what it would have been like to be there, in the concert hall, in front of the orchestra...
DonB
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Tue May 08, 2012 7:59 pm

Thank you for your kind words.

I wondered more than once what could have been if recording technology was more advanced during Furtwängler's lifetime.
davidhuh
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:27 pm

Costi wrote:Thank you, hectorm, what a surprise!

David, prost!

Image
:lol: (I don't trust this whisky too much...)
davidhuh
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Tue May 08, 2012 10:43 pm

DonB wrote:Thank you for your kind words.

I wondered more than once what could have been if recording technology was more advanced during Furtwängler's lifetime.
Dear DonB,

are you aware of the TAHRA edition? www.tahra.com. Furtwängler is prominent in their catalogue - I could not check if the Bayreuther 9th is among them. Their restoration is unique, their linear notes a pleasure to read.

EMI has reissued & restored the Beethoven 1-9 in 2000 - perhaps you know the Bayreuther 9th from there.

cheers, david
Costi
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:45 am

DonB wrote:Thank you for your kind words.

I wondered more than once what could have been if recording technology was more advanced during Furtwängler's lifetime.
DonB, you might find some answers in the following words of Celibidache - who succeeded him at the Berliner in '45, then shared the baton between '49 and '54, who knew and appreciated Furtwängler:

On recordings:

“The desire to make recordings, to fixate what cannot be fixated, is a false one, it is the source of an utter misunderstanding of the musical phenomenon. What we preserve [on a recording] is not the same as what our spirit preserves […]. According to the technology used, the results are different, but [in substance] there are no differences.
Listening to recorded music, people form a general impression about music which, first and foremost, is not a real one, because all sound data is completely different on a disc with respect to what it is like in reality.”
“Recordings have levelled down everything and made it mediocre. They degraded everything down to photography. There are doubtlessly beautiful photographs, but just imagine that, instead of spending a week in the Alps, somebody chooses to stay at home and browse a photo album, trying at the same time to taste the sweetness of the water around Basel. Some don’t have the possibility to go and they put up with as little as this. But the disc cannot replace music, because it is a copy of its tomb. For a sensitive person, listening to a disc would mean attending a funeral. What is being burried? The very possibility to live the real sound, what is irreplaceable and indescribable. Recordings have lead to the extinction of good directors!”

On Furtwängler

“He had a sui generis manner of gesturing, he was not at all a tecnical orchestra director. He was not good at the technique of directing. Though he made use of other things, he managed to express something that became, for the orchestra, univocal. Thanks to him, I managed to achieve accomplishments that have remained unique throughout my life, and shall remain unique and unrepeatable. Thanks to him I had the grand revelation of what music can mean.”
“He refused to record because he was not a very precise director, his technique left a lot to be desired and, from several points of view, whatever he accomplished [in recordings], others could do much better. The physical effort to direct, to hold everyone together, was not his strong point. But everything that belongs to the indeterminate, the indeterminable, the unperceivable, beyond the moment’s passion, all this was his. As he did not master a clear technique, a technique that can make itself felt in any circumstance, he did not make the same kind of carreer as those who expressed themselves directly, who had nothing else but the direct expression. The sound, like – for instance – the one found in nature was not his forte! But the most profound explanations given by a man who had nothing of the pretentiousness of an intellectual, the only true things about music, I heard them from him. “

Later on Celibidache explained how the more recent, digital technology, goes even further robbing sound of its actual life, decomposing it (into digits) and recomposing it in the disc players at home or in the car. The acoustics are different in the place where the music was recorded and in the place where the recording is played (in the bathroom?). But the very way of making music, the tempo, depends on the acoustics, on how music sounds in the place where the live concert takes place. One adjusts the tempo according to this - it is one of the greatest lessons learned by Celibidache from Furtwängler: he asked Furtwängler once how fast he should direct a passage from a symphony, to which Furtwängler replied "What a silly question, you have to listen to it and decide based on how it sounds". But, besides what is lost of the sound through the use of microphones, what is the relation of the tempo to the acoustics of your bathroom, where the recording may be played?! That explains the shock of Furtwängler when he listened to his own recording and could not believe it was so slow - it felt "slow" because the complexity of the harmonics and the acoustic rapports of the place of recording were not present on the disc.
DonB
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Thu May 10, 2012 8:10 pm

davidhuh wrote:
DonB wrote:Thank you for your kind words.

I wondered more than once what could have been if recording technology was more advanced during Furtwängler's lifetime.
Dear DonB,

are you aware of the TAHRA edition? http://www.tahra.com. Furtwängler is prominent in their catalogue - I could not check if the Bayreuther 9th is among them. Their restoration is unique, their linear notes a pleasure to read.

EMI has reissued & restored the Beethoven 1-9 in 2000 - perhaps you know the Bayreuther 9th from there.

cheers, david
I have got a few 33 RPM records which are directed by Furtwängler. One of them is a french issue of the Emperor Concerto (opus 73), the Philharmonia Orchestra directed by Furtwängler with Fischer on the piano. It was recorded on 19-20 February 1951 in the Abbey Road Studios. That recording made me curious about Furtwängler and hence I am trying to find recordings made by him of other classical works that I particularly like. The ninth is one of those works.

Thank you for pointing out the TAHRA edition, I was aware of http://www.furtwangler.net/ on which the TAHRA edition is mentioned, but I have not yet had the time to look into it.

Costi wrote:DonB, you might find some answers in the following words of Celibidache - who succeeded him at the Berliner in '45, then shared the baton between '49 and '54, who knew and appreciated Furtwängler:

On recordings:

“The desire to make recordings, to fixate what cannot be fixated, is a false one, it is the source of an utter misunderstanding of the musical phenomenon. What we preserve [on a recording] is not the same as what our spirit preserves […]. According to the technology used, the results are different, but [in substance] there are no differences.
Listening to recorded music, people form a general impression about music which, first and foremost, is not a real one, because all sound data is completely different on a disc with respect to what it is like in reality.”
“Recordings have levelled down everything and made it mediocre. They degraded everything down to photography. There are doubtlessly beautiful photographs, but just imagine that, instead of spending a week in the Alps, somebody chooses to stay at home and browse a photo album, trying at the same time to taste the sweetness of the water around Basel. Some don’t have the possibility to go and they put up with as little as this. But the disc cannot replace music, because it is a copy of its tomb. For a sensitive person, listening to a disc would mean attending a funeral. What is being burried? The very possibility to live the real sound, what is irreplaceable and indescribable. Recordings have lead to the extinction of good directors!”

On Furtwängler

“He had a sui generis manner of gesturing, he was not at all a tecnical orchestra director. He was not good at the technique of directing. Though he made use of other things, he managed to express something that became, for the orchestra, univocal. Thanks to him, I managed to achieve accomplishments that have remained unique throughout my life, and shall remain unique and unrepeatable. Thanks to him I had the grand revelation of what music can mean.”
“He refused to record because he was not a very precise director, his technique left a lot to be desired and, from several points of view, whatever he accomplished [in recordings], others could do much better. The physical effort to direct, to hold everyone together, was not his strong point. But everything that belongs to the indeterminate, the indeterminable, the unperceivable, beyond the moment’s passion, all this was his. As he did not master a clear technique, a technique that can make itself felt in any circumstance, he did not make the same kind of carreer as those who expressed themselves directly, who had nothing else but the direct expression. The sound, like – for instance – the one found in nature was not his forte! But the most profound explanations given by a man who had nothing of the pretentiousness of an intellectual, the only true things about music, I heard them from him. “

Later on Celibidache explained how the more recent, digital technology, goes even further robbing sound of its actual life, decomposing it (into digits) and recomposing it in the disc players at home or in the car. The acoustics are different in the place where the music was recorded and in the place where the recording is played (in the bathroom?). But the very way of making music, the tempo, depends on the acoustics, on how music sounds in the place where the live concert takes place. One adjusts the tempo according to this - it is one of the greatest lessons learned by Celibidache from Furtwängler: he asked Furtwängler once how fast he should direct a passage from a symphony, to which Furtwängler replied "What a silly question, you have to listen to it and decide based on how it sounds". But, besides what is lost of the sound through the use of microphones, what is the relation of the tempo to the acoustics of your bathroom, where the recording may be played?! That explains the shock of Furtwängler when he listened to his own recording and could not believe it was so slow - it felt "slow" because the complexity of the harmonics and the acoustic rapports of the place of recording were not present on the disc.
I tend to agree with the observation made by Celibidache, but I would not want to miss out on the photographs made by Furtwängler, Rostropovich, Arrau, etc., etc. That said, I try to go to live concerts as often as possible for it is, indeed, different than listening to records and CDs.

I suppose part of the shock of Furtwängler is something that interested laymen will not experience, for it requires a particular giftedness not possessed by everyone.
DonB
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Thu May 10, 2012 9:20 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOf2jO44liw

Bach's Goldberg Variations BWV 988
Ton Koopman - Harpischord.
Costi
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Fri May 11, 2012 8:13 am

That is wise, DonB - I agree and I do the same. As long as we are aware of the difference between the photograph and the fresh air of the Alps. And as long as we get the real thing as often as we can.
I remember an interview with a young man who was Celibidache's personal assistant while he rehearsed with an orchestra (in Paris, if I recall correctly). He was present at the concert and had recorded it in secret. On the way to the airport, knowing the Maestro's position on the matter, he eased his conscience by confessing the trespass. But Celibidache replied to him that, as long as he had been present at the concert and had lived the experience, the recording had a different kind of value to him, entirely personal, and gave his absolution :) That is yet another perspective on the matter...
Gruto

Fri May 11, 2012 2:47 pm

Ohne Bach wäre das Leben ein Irrtum (Without Bach, life would be a mistake) to paraphrase Nietzsche. My dad gave me a Menuhin and Oistrakh recording a few years ago (CD!), which might not be timely on a Friday afternoon. On the other hand, I imagine the effect is similar to that of cocain, which should be popular on a Friday out nowadays: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmmpjziKcFU
Costi
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Fri May 11, 2012 5:59 pm

Gruto wrote:Ohne Bach wäre das Leben ein Irrtum (Without Bach, life would be a mistake) to paraphrase Nietzsche. My dad gave me a Menuhin and Oistrakh recording a few years ago (CD!), which might not be timely on a Friday afternoon. On the other hand, I imagine the effect is similar to that of cocain, which should be popular on a Friday out nowadays: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmmpjziKcFU
Here is your fix, Gruto! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZpZPFGzOA
Costi
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Fri May 11, 2012 6:00 pm

And now let the weekend begin! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXhAz0DOpMU
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