First bespoke - visiting Italy's south

[Tutumulut]

Dear Members

I will be travelling to Rome and be in Italy for 10 days. I plan to visit a tailor and start on a relationship. Does anyone have specific tailors they recommend to noobs like me in Naples or on Sicily? I've been searching the forum, but couldn't find anything explicit.

Having become a member only recently, the wealth of topics, the depth and breadth of the discussions all make me convinced to start a sartorial upgrade.

As an introduction and background, I have a garment technology degree, but not working in the industry. Cloth and cut have always had my highest interest. After visiting the forum, however, the immortal words of Manuel from Falwty Towers come to mind: I knowwe nothink! A very humbling experience.

At the moment, my wardrobe consists of off the shelf SB suits by Caruso, La Vera Sartoria and Attolini. La Vera has my preference from a fit and value perspective. Oh, and they all are in the body hugging silhouette that many here are not in favour of (I know I put that mildly)!

And for my first suit im thinking DB linen or open weave wool summer cloth, unstructured as much as possible for lightness of look and warmth. I heat up very easily!

The initial guidance by you knowledgable forum members would be very, very much appreciated!

Rick Gartner

[hectorm]

I will be travelling to Rome and be in Italy for 10 days. I plan to visit a tailor and start on a relationship.

Dear Rick,
By any means, 10 days seem like a very short time to allocate to the south of Italy and finding yourself a tailor with whom to start a relationship.
But if you´re travelling to Rome first, you might visit there a relatively newer house that -I believe- will fit you well: Sartoria Ripense. They are on 38 Via di Ripetta, in the area south of Piazza del Popolo and north of Via Condotti.
The reason why I mention Ripense is because of your initial taste for slim fitting suits and because at the same time they could steer you a bit more off from fashion and unto classic garments without abandoning the Italian flare you like.
It´s a very nice shop. Go in, chat with Andrea, and maybe, even have a bespoke sweater made for you.

[dopey]

if you search this site, you will find some posts I made about Caraceni Roma. I was very happy and had things made on two successive summers; I will use them again if I return to Rome this summer.
It is possible to have something made on a tight timetable, but you should be sure to let them know in advance and to make yourself available for multiple fittings.

[Tutumulut]

Gentlemen

Thank you very much for such prompt responses! It seems to reflect the overall culture of LL, reading the forum night after night.

I now realise I should have been clearer. I do not intend to visit for 10 days and get something done, I merely hope to find someone with whom there seems to be rapport, to agree on what model, what cloth, timelines, etc. I realise 10 days is a push, which leaves me with a terrible prospect: I will need to return to Italy in spring, when everything is green, the lunch terraces are out, the evenings can only be tolerated with a glass of red (or two). But as the saying in some languages goes, he who wants to be handsome, will need to suffer to achieve it!

And about the tight fitting I mentioned in my first post. I indeed currently wear such silhouette, but pictures of Mr. Alden's examples and of others have opened me up to go for the baggy look, haha! Seriously, as long as the armpit is high and tight, the arm's connection to shoulder spacious, 3 roll 2 for SB fairly high, and a few more details, I'm sure I'll be a happy man. And yes, as you can tell from my vocabulary, I have no clue what I'm talking about, but know what I like when I see it. And even that may prove to be a wrong assumption once talking to the experts.

I can only say that the black tie suit I had done in Bangkok, after a very long search for the right tailor, was not what I had in mind at all, although to many that are not into this hobby, it looks really nice. Probably an experience many on the forum recognise.

And I also realise that a first assignment may not bring the best out of a tailor, working with the same client over time would mean getting more and more familiar with the body, and as important, the personality. Luckily, I believe I have a fairly standard body with straight shoulders. Only the fact I'm 1.96m (6"5') may be out of the ordinary. As for personality, well, let the tailor decide what's best. After all, it is more about teamwork than about assigning a job to some subordinate. The client may be the principal, the tailor the agent when it comes to what needs to be done, when it comes to how it needs to be done, the roles may be reversed, but less so if the client is more experienced and knowledgable.

In summary, I look forward visiting the tailors that you both have mentioned and at the same time are still open to other suggestions in Rome and below.

Rick

[alden]

Rick

Southern Italy can be a real challenge if you don’t understand the culture and don’t speak the language. No, let me start over. Southern Italy can be a real challenge even if you understand the culture perfectly and speak the language well.

Being six five and a noob brings another breadth of challenges to the equation in a land where most are a full foot shorter and where they eat noobs for breakfast, raw. You are noobie sushi and guys with Ginzu knives shaped like scissors are waiting for you.

I would advise you to stick to tailors who are used to working with tourists/travelers as far north of Roma as you can skedaddle to for your first bespoke experiences.

England is beautiful in Spring. It is also very green, there are lovely terraces, equally fulsome maidens and they import red wine from France. Capisce?

Seriously I can’t imagine why anyone would want to spend a minute of time in a place like Sicily or S. Italy!

Write me and I will try and navigate you around the largest icebergs out there.

Cheers.

[davidhuh]

Rick

Southern Italy can be a real challenge if you don’t understand the culture and don’t speak the language. No, let me start over. Southern Italy can be a real challenge even if you understand the culture and speak the language well.

Being six five and a noob brings another breadth of challenges to the equation in a land where most are a full foot shorter and where they eat noobs for breakfast, raw. You are noobie sushi and guys with Ginzu knives shaped like scissors are waiting for you.

[levantine]

I have suits from both Caraceni and Ripense. In Caraceni you have to go with their style but they execute it flawlessly.

Ripense is very tourist friendly. They travel around Europe as well. If you live in Europe they might visit you in your city. I would recommend them with no hesitation. Most of their clientele is non-italian and I assume you will find it very easy to work with them.

[hectorm]

At the moment, my wardrobe consists of off the shelf SB suits by Caruso, La Vera Sartoria and Attolini. La Vera has my preference from a fit and value perspective.

Only the fact I'm 1.96m (6"5') may be out of the ordinary.

Rick, you´ll have to tell me your secret under penalty of being fed to those Mezzogiorno guys.
How come being 1.96m you fit in off the shelf La Vera Sartoria Napoletana jackets?
In the past I have encountered and fallen in love with some of Orazio Luciano´s coats (among the most beautiful I´ve seen RTW), but being your same height, even if I accepted to wear a bum-freezer again, those mappina sleeves don´t even reach my elbows.

[Tutumulut]

alden

You made me laugh my pants off! A dangerous situation when being in public and/or on the move, but luckily for me I was neither. Given that I'm currently living in a country where the people claim that only wolves are larger carnivores, where the average foreigner believes all men are named Borat and that I haven't seen any Italians survive here, gives me some comfort. But not much, mind you. I hear your message loud and clear and will send you a separate email.

It is just that what I see coming from the south to be much more appealing, the shoulder which seems to be without any padding, the slim line (did I mention that before?), and after having spent a number of holidays in Italy, I would pick the land below Rome over the north any time. And having spent considerable time in The City with many colleagues wearing MTM and a few bespoke, and having done regular window shopping in SR, what I saw did not appeal to me at all (expecting incoming missiles now, maybe as testing before defending those Latin rocks again).

Levantine, good to hear that you recommend Ripense for their xenophile character. That certainly sounds appealing to me.

hectorm, I'm part of that tribe that call themselves the tallest nation in the world after the Masai, the Dutch, and La Vera and also the others cater well for that market. When my regular store in Amsterdam started to carry the brand, they were merely following the others. I used to be a 58 long and am now a 54 long, which I believe some also indicate as a 54 with drop 7. I can recommend the Netherlands for RTM for anyone having difficulty reaching the bottom shelves in the supermarket.

The more I think about it, I realise that what vague ideas I may have in my head all seem to have La Vera's look and feel as a starting point. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

I will be leaving for Europe coming Friday. Can't wait to start this adventure after all your encouraging words. Maybe I'll write about my experience, starting right here, to encourage anyone else tipping their toes in this shark infested pond, if you believe that may be of interest.

[davidhuh]

Dag Tutumulut,

this has been such an entertaining thread - sure I want to hear about your adventures!

cheers, David

[Tutumulut]

In the days after my original posting I received lots of offline advice from loyal LL readers. This brief posting is to reflect on that. As I didn't have as much network access as I would have liked, it comes with some delay. Personally, I'm already further down the road, but for entertainment purposes I thought it appropriate to describe the stages I went through.

The offline advice could be divided into 2 main categories:
- to follow alden's advice and stay north, ideally above the Alps and go to SR, Vienna, even Karlsruhe was to be taken seriously, but forget about Italy!
- to take some of the main street offerings in Rome or Naples serious, good things where reported about them, they know their foreign languages

Of course, as a quasi adolescent on his path to adulthood, I felt strongly about not listening to either and decided to go swimming, i.e. do a deep dive in the shark infested pool.

What remains as an overwhelming feeling when corresponding with the advisors was that all had their best intentions and where genuinely keen on making my maiden assignment as smooth as possible. I applaude LL for that and especially thank those that have provided me with their knowledge, experience and opinions!

Soon I will be writing about what happened next.

[hectorm]

In the days after my original posting I received lots of offline advice from loyal LL readers...... I applaude LL for that and especially thank those that have provided me with their knowledge, experience and opinions!

Dear Rick,
since you graciously acknowledged on line all the advice and good will received from LL members in the private communications around this thread, then I can´t help but publicly recognizing the gentlemanliness and kindness shown by you in those same contacts.
Good luck in the Mezzogiorno.

[Tutumulut]

So the south it was going to be, although some will argue Rome is not part of the south, especially the Romans themselves. After having reduced the list of names to about 7 tailors and as many shirtmakers, I decided to stick to Naples. I only had little over a week and didn't want to bother the missuz with endless strolls. I wanted to show shopping can be a pleasant experience! After further visits to forums and the tailors' respective websites, where available and where without flash, I decided on 3 names: tailors Arturo Pastena and Nunzio Pirozzi and shirtmaker Anna Catalano. Easy enough, no? How difficult can it be?

As it turned out, these people actually try to hide from potential customers, hiding behind columns, curtains and garbage. When you've read that tailor x is in fact on the 4th floor of such and such building, expect the following road blocks: closed general access doors; their names not appearing on the long list of names near the doorbell; if the name is there, they're closed for lunch; elevators that only operate after you've dropped a 10 Euro cent coin in the machine, 10 cents that you don't have on you and with nobody in sight that might help to change. And a 4th floor in these old buildings is like an 8th floor in modern buildings, what with 5m ceilings.

You've probably already guessed that the trip wasn't very successful when measured against the original targets. On the day of arrival we walked to both addresses I had. Catalano was supposed to be at the same address as Pastena. At their address, the door was hermetically closed, no indication who lived there, no response to insistent ringing. After walking to the address we had for Pirozzi, it turned out he had moved out 2 years earlier. The kind gentleman who informed us couldn't tell where he had moved to, however. So no luck at all. Back in the hotel and on wifi, I found out I had the old address and he had moved just around the corner in that remote part of town - remote when doing all distances on foot.

In an effort to save some of the day, I decided to visit Capelli, the tie maker. Incredible: easily found, the main gate was open, the guard kindly showed where the atelier was. A lady helped me pick 3 designs which I decided should be classic lined 7 fold. After leaving a small deposit without receipt (i can hear Michael: are you crazy? Naples! Naples!), I agreed to pick them up the coming week. But the next morning I changed my mind and went back to tell them that I wanted the simpler, softer, unlined model. This time, mr. Capelli was there and he of course agreed to this change. When leaving, he made my day. He commented how elegant I was and for that he wanted to present me with a pocket square which I should choose from a pile. Hearing from an elegant Italian such praise is really nice! Now, let's assume that he has a good eye for elegance and I am indeed what he says I am. Then he believes that elegance should be further enhanced and implicitly, lack of elegance should be ignored and considered a lost cause. Is this the Italian attitude in general I wonder. Alternatively, I'm the Vandal from northern Europe that I really am and he merely tries to cover up such ugliness. In either case, a pleasant interaction between 2 human beings and if the ties turn out half decent, he has a new customer! By the way, I insisted he should surprise me if he really wanted to present one ad he picked a lovely matte red paisley motive on a green background, a design I would have never picked myself and which is therefore the better for it.

From Capelli to Pastena/Catalano is a short walk. This time, ringing the bell did invoke a response, but not the one I had hoped for. A different company moved in and they had no idea where the tailors went. No luck. Walking to Pirozzi on via Antonio do Gramsci takes more time, but sunny yet cool weather make for a pleasant stroll. And this time, finally, luck was on our side! Open doors, an elevator that didn't need coins and a tailor that was welcoming.

So the takeaway is that just going to visit these people is not as straightforward as it may seem elsewhere. Try to get as much confirmation about their location as you can get. Calling them is of course even better, but speaking Italian is a prerequisite, something I do but for food only: pizza, pasta, cafè, contorni... Not very useful when discussing directions, and Pizza Garibaldi and Piazza Garibaldi are similar, but ultimately 2 different things: round, but not perfectly so; flat, but with bulges and edges and troughs; smelly, greasy, too large to easily navigate.

What about Pirozzi then, I hear you ask? Well, if you've made it until here, that is. Next post.

[davidhuh]

What about Pirozzi then, I hear you ask? Well, if you've made it until here, that is. Next post.

- yes please! You have been warned, but you seem to cope rather well

cheers, david

[Costi]

Dear Tutumulut, were you perhaps expecting a nicely furbished jewelry shop with a couple of helpful assistants to show you around? - no, this is a hands-on mining action, digging up through tons of dirt. But imagine the satisfaction of coming across a diamond that has been lying buried in garbage, hidden behind curtains and (ancient) columns. Even then, the diamond will need polishing - chances are you'll have to move to Naples for a while...
If you go on with this, I see at least a good book on the horizon