Savile Row Overhead and Prices

[Leonard Logsdail]

It might be worth remembering, as this discussion gets deeper and deeper, that the job of the tailor is to make a living and, yes, even a profit! he does this by making clothes. Most of the price structuring is decided purely by what the market will pay. Different tailors have a different client base. Some have clients with mid-echelon wallets or mentality while others operate with clients in a higher bracket. Overhead is a guiding factor, but I do not think by much - unless your business model runs only on making a living.

this is, though, a very interesting discussion as it is flushing out the pricing structure of a business where the balance between value for money, esthetics, expectations and reality all coincide.

[dempsy444]

It might be worth remembering, as this discussion gets deeper and deeper, that the job of the tailor is to make a living and, yes, even a profit! he does this by making clothes. Most of the price structuring is decided purely by what the market will pay. Different tailors have a different client base. Some have clients with mid-echelon wallets or mentality while others operate with clients in a higher bracket. Overhead is a guiding factor, but I do not think by much - unless your business model runs only on making a living.

this is, though, a very interesting discussion as it is flushing out the pricing structure of a business where the balance between value for money, esthetics, expectations and reality all coincide.

Yes, I suppose the succinct answer to the original question of why one tailor charges more than another one who is equally good is simply: because he can.

The next question is, why can he? Here I think the theories get more interesting.

[Gruto]

The next question is, why can he? Here I think the theories get more interesting.

The simple answer is that he has created (or bought) a strong brand. We could also say that he and other SR tailors are entitled by history and dominant opinions to charge a high price.

[Rowly]

Now I just visit London on a regular basis. My wife is English and if I'm with her we stay with her friends. If I'm alone I stay at either my club or a reciprocal club - in the cheapest attic room w/o facilities. I mention this not to induce pity but to make the point that although I enjoy St. James's clubland and all of the assorted sartorial wonderfulness, I don't have money to burn.

That's an idea...How about some kind of affiliate Club membership for LL members so that we can all avail of these pleasures on a more regular basis, leaving more in the kitty for sartorial investments?

[Kayak81]

That's an idea...How about some kind of affiliate Club membership for LL members so that we can all avail of these pleasures on a more regular basis, leaving more in the kitty for sartorial investments?

Actually London Clubs aren't that expensive for overseas members and, in my experience, many of them aren't sticklers for the rules like most American Clubs. I easily pay for my memberships with the money I save on rooms and the atmosphere is certainly more inviting and welcoming than that in a hotel.

[dempsy444]

The simple answer is that he has created (or bought) a strong brand. We could also say that he and other SR tailors are entitled by history and dominant opinions to charge a high price.

But the original question was framed as a situation like Huntsman vs. Poole. Here, both have history, the Savile Row brand, and strong brands on their own, though many would probably say Huntsman has the stronger of the two.

[Gruto]

The simple answer is that he has created (or bought) a strong brand. We could also say that he and other SR tailors are entitled by history and dominant opinions to charge a high price.

But the original question was framed as a situation like Huntsman vs. Poole. Here, both have history, the Savile Row brand, and strong brands on their own, though many would probably say Huntsman has the stronger of the two.

If we look at SR as a play, all SR firm have a different role with different entitlements and lines. These roles attract different clients and connect to different prices ... Poole is the king but old and weak. Huntman is the injured younger brother who has built an empire of his own. A&S is a cousin to Poole and Huntsman. A&S is a good businessman but A&S cannot become king because the blue blood is too thin. Richard Anderson, on the hand, son of Huntsman has a chance to become king one day, because Poole is childless. G&H, the third brother, has fled the family partying downtown. Kilgour, son of G&H, has become a Buddhist ... Newcomers like Kathryn Sargent and A&S alumnis are sort of illegitimate children of the royal family ...

[st.tully]

The simple answer is that he has created (or bought) a strong brand. We could also say that he and other SR tailors are entitled by history and dominant opinions to charge a high price.

But the original question was framed as a situation like Huntsman vs. Poole. Here, both have history, the Savile Row brand, and strong brands on their own, though many would probably say Huntsman has the stronger of the two.

Yes. This gets to the crux of the question. Striping away "brand value" is there a difference in the quality of the actual craftsmanship?

[Gruto]

The simple answer is that he has created (or bought) a strong brand. We could also say that he and other SR tailors are entitled by history and dominant opinions to charge a high price.

But the original question was framed as a situation like Huntsman vs. Poole. Here, both have history, the Savile Row brand, and strong brands on their own, though many would probably say Huntsman has the stronger of the two.

Yes. This gets to the crux of the question. Striping away "brand value" is there a difference in the quality of the actual craftsmanship?

I visited Poole's workrooms a year ago or so, and Simon Cundey explained me what was going on. I got impression that most seams and canvas parts are sewn by hand except for long seams on the trousers. Mr. Cundey confirmed the impression, when I asked about the amount of machine sewing. He also stressed that they have started talking about "pure bespoke", that is bespoke garments made on the premises entirely. However, Jeffrey finds more machine work in the following Poole garment, which BTW might just be older MTM stuff: http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/search?q=poole

Coming back to the craftmanship, my own guess is that the product differences are more about service and number of fittings than hours spent working on a suit, when comparing the big names on Row. Small names could in fact be putting more time in a suit because they cannot make an assembly line like Poole, A&S, and Huntsman. It should be interesting to have a cutter on SR to sort it out!

[Rowly]

Small names could in fact be putting more time in a suit because they cannot make an assembly line

When the assembly line is distributed across Soho, it leaves little scope for any one person to have pride in the finished garment, which he may never see and on the customer whose face he might never see.

when I asked about the amount of machine sewing. He also stressed that they have started talking about "pure bespoke", that is bespoke garments made on the premises entirely.

Talking is not sewing. With the endless emphasis on everything hand sewn, it always amazes me, when I take a walk down Savile Row and glance down into the basements and workrooms below....just how many sewing machines are in use, albeit operated by hand.
An artisan Tailor, who works at his bench to produce a garment that will be a testament to his life's experience..for a client he knows and wants to please, in a relationship that is personal...that is 100% bespoke tailoring, and 0% marketing hype.

[Gruto]

Small names could in fact be putting more time in a suit because they cannot make an assembly line

When the assembly line is distributed across Soho, it leaves little scope for any one person to have pride in the finished garment, which he may never see and on the customer whose face he might never see.

when I asked about the amount of machine sewing. He also stressed that they have started talking about "pure bespoke", that is bespoke garments made on the premises entirely.

Talking is not sewing. With the endless emphasis on everything hand sewn, it always amazes me, when I take a walk down Savile Row and glance down into the basements and workrooms below....just how many sewing machines are in use, albeit operated by hand.
An artisan Tailor, who works at his bench to produce a garment that will be a testament to his life's experience..for a client he knows and wants to please, in a relationship that is personal...that is 100% bespoke tailoring, and 0% marketing hype.

I am not the one to defend SR. I see no reason to pay 3-4000 GBP for suit, when you can have a very fine product and a great service for a lower price at a small unknown firm or sole trader tailor. That said, SR administers a history of Bristish tailoring and it must attract very talented and skilled tailors, who take pride in what they do. Reducing SR of today to marketing hype seems off the mark.

[Rowly]

I agree totally that Savile row has a history of excellence and quality and I'm sure it is still maintained. But it is inevitable that as an organisation gets bigger and loses the personal touch, things will not be as they were in the past. The best work I have seen from the row is from small, more personal shops. Who has been shown around and told that after an arm has been carefully hand fitted to a shoulder and re-done until perfect, it is then secured by machine? If a carpenter told me that all his holes are bored with a brace & bit, I would wonder why he doesn't use a power drill for certain tasks, especially if they were all over his bench. I'm all for Savile Row and what it represents. My posts are not meant to be critical of the row...just of the blind acceptance of diminishing standards which tends to make them a self fulfilled prophesy.

[alden]

One of the most famous SR firms is on the market. A good deal of staff has been let go and there is only two years left on a lease. The firm's true market value is a fraction of what was paid for it not too many years ago. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a nice 1 bedroom apartment in Mayfair for its value. So even with prices in the mid 3000s for a suit, the firm could not make do. But they were the first to offer RTW on the Row and publicly trade on their Chinese made clothing. So in some ways they are reaping what they have sewn. (Sorry)

The economics of the Row is not as clear cut as one might think. The firm's bottom lines are as thin as their pinstripes.

In the meantime Abercrombie & Fitch have launched their new children's store on the Row to the delight of all the other legendary tenants. The market for bespoke diapers may be the way forward to building future equity.

Cheers

[Frans]

An artisan Tailor, who works at his bench to produce a garment that will be a testament to his life's experience..for a client he knows and wants to please, in a relationship that is personal...that is 100% bespoke tailoring, and 0% marketing hype.

This is what many of us are looking for today, including myself. But it is a very middle class way of thinking, isn't it?

I guess that Savile Row as a concept by and for the British upper class focussed on a high level of service from A-Z, something one sole person rarely could (or can) deliver. Also, for a clientele with valets service and product reliability may matter more than the price/value relationship. Those days have gone by, but perhaps some few still feel more comfortable with the RP English in the front house than the cockney of the tailors

[Costi]

If we look at SR as a play, all SR firm have a different role with different entitlements and lines.

Not sure about the proposed plot , but I like the idea of SR compared to a theatre play Beyond segmenting the "market" into price levels (how relevant is price?! people will pay more than they can or should afford anyway for something they love...), I think what is more important is that each (potential) customer identifies with one actor rather than with another: just like watching a play! The identification may be more or less conscious, but it's always there.
This has an interesting implication that is worth considering: in order to make a choice for a tailoring house on SR, a potential customer should really get to know as many as possible, or at least the main actors who play the essential parts, including those who don't seem to appeal at first sight. They may be judged independently, but they make more sense evaluated with respect to each other, in their relationship to each other, like theatre characters. Don't just window shop, go in and get to know the people inside, at least for curiosity's sake, even if you don't think you'll become a customer: you'll have a better understanding of context and it will reinforce your choice(s).
You can't be a theatre critic when all you ever see is one actor of the play, as if he were followed by a light spot and everything else were in darkness, like the flute's part taken out of the context of a symphonic piece.
The value of the heritage of SR is not so much in the history and pedigree of individual houses - there are old tailoring houses with great tradition elsewhere in the world, too; it is in their being all together in one place and in complex interrelations, in the distinctive character of each considered with respect to the others, as well as in their unity (after all!) in diversity (the English "style"). It makes you want to be part of the story!
Then one day you want to be come your own playwright and start looking for less renowned but possibly equally (or more) talented actors who can play the parts YOU have in mind...