Savile Row Overhead and Prices

[st.tully]

Twenty years ago when I lived in London, Savile Row just wasn't a realistic option for me. Yes I did walk into Anderson and Sheppard but certainly didn't get the feeling I should eat beans on toast for a month to justify the patronage. I went to Sims and MacDonald on the recommendation of a friend and enjoyed a few commissions and for shirts I shopped the sales with fairly good success.

Now I just visit London on a regular basis. My wife is English and if I'm with her we stay with her friends. If I'm alone I stay at either my club or a reciprocal club - in the cheapest attic room w/o facilities. I mention this not to induce pity but to make the point that although I enjoy St. James's clubland and all of the assorted sartorial wonderfulness, I don't have money to burn.

In recent years I have had the good fortune to patronize Henry Poole. I'm very happy with my two Poole suits. I've just started a blazer commission with Terry Haste and so far so good. The LL has been a valuable resource in making these commissions.

My question is this: which London tailor has the best craftsmanship? The best make? The most handwork? Is price a good indication?

It would seem that overhead has a great deal to do with the price of a Savile Row suit but upon closer examination maybe not. Henry Poole must have very high overhead but the cost of a suit is middle of the road. Kathryn Sargent must have very low overhead but her price is much than Poole and much higher than Terry Haste who is next door to Kathryn. Huntsman is higher than everyone.

My former impression is that all of the reputable Savile Row (and nearby) tailors offer a very similar product as far a quality - the difference is in the cut/style - and then you pay a premium for overhead. I chose Poole because I like the cut, they travel to Washington, and they have been around long enough that I shouldn't worry about doing business long distance.

So what is driving prices? Overhead? Handwork? Cache? Reputation?

Some might say, "If you have to ask the price, you can not afford it to begin with". But I don't think that is the case with many of us who are inclined toward bespoke. We make a choice to spend our money on a fine bespoke suit rather than some other luxury (or necessity). Accordingly, we want to make sure we are getting the best value - or at least making an informed cost/benefit analysis.

[andreyb]

So what is driving prices? Overhead? Handwork? Cache? Reputation?

All these factors combined, I guess. And another factor: what others charge.

It is no coincidence that all A&S alumni are priced roughly the same -- that is, slightly below than what their alma mater currently charges.

As for Sargent, I honestly believe that setting this price is a mistake. My best wishes to the lady, of course, but the price is simply too high for an independent working from shared premises.

Said this, the jacket posted on the ASW article looks superb.

Andrey

[Renfield]

I have just taken a look at Huntsman's website where they state that their suits (2 piece) start at £3995. They also state that it usually takes 85 hours to complete a suit.

If we divide 3995 by 85 we get an hourly rate of £47. (I have left out material costs)

In Britain £50/hr is about an average labour rate for a craftsperson and I should imagine quite good in London where you would expect a bit of a spike.

Ms Sargent may have to charge slightly more given that she is unlikely to have the volume of business that Huntsman or the other SR outfits have.

I wish her well.

Sometimes, I feel that there is a disconnect in peoples thinking about business costs.

[andreyb]

In Britain £50/hr is about an average labour rate for a craftsperson and I should imagine quite good in London where you would expect a bit of a spike.

This means £400/day and £8571/month. Are you sure in your numbers? Do you have a link to a *trusted* source that confirms your assertion?

Ms Sargent may have to charge slightly more given that she is unlikely to have the volume of business that Huntsman or the other SR outfits have.

Does she pay a rent for a full ground-level shop on a very expensive London steet?

Does she pay a rent for workshops on the same street or uses outworkers from SoHo (an area with much more affordable rents) instead?

Sometimes, I feel that there is a disconnect in peoples thinking about business costs.

Indeed.

Andrey

[Renfield]

Duplicate post.

[st.tully]

I have just taken a look at Huntsman's website where they state that their suits (2 piece) start at £3995. They also state that it usually takes 85 hours to complete a suit.

Maybe the best way to pose my question is why does a Huntsman suit cost 1000 ponds more than a Poole suit?

Both are old established tailoring houses that do all the work on the premises (I know Poole does) and both have reputation and cache - so why is Huntsman a grand more? For that mater, why is Kent Haste and Lachter almost a grand less than than Poole?

If there is more craftsmanship or hours in one over the other, fine. Overhead? Maybe. But I would think the Huntsman vs. Poole overhead would be similar.

[Concordia]

Huntsman used to be known for having all of its workers on the payroll, as opposed to sending jobs out to them. That was pre-bankruptcy-- they might well have changed their practice.

[Russell]

In Britain £50/hr is about an average labour rate for a craftsperson and I should imagine quite good in London where you would expect a bit of a spike.

Hello Renfield, where did you get that £50 figure from?

Regards
Russell

[Berwick]

If you look at

http://www.battersea-plumber.co.uk/prices.html

You will see that electricians and plumbers in Battersea charge £75 per hour. This is to cover holiday pay, insurance, paying an accountant/bookkeeper for annual returns and monthly VAT returns etc. £47 per hour for a craftsman seems quite good value to me.

[andreyb]

If there is more craftsmanship or hours in one over the other, fine. Overhead? Maybe. But I would think the Huntsman vs. Poole overhead would be similar.

A part of the reason is due to Huntsman uses best outworkers, who do charge more. Or so is implied in this old thread.

But the complete formula is much more complex, and known only to Huntsman's owners. Some people say that Huntsman deliberately strives to be "the most expensive house on SR".

Andrey

[Badden]

A part of the reason is due to Huntsman uses best outworkers, who do charge more. Or so is implied in this old thread.

This is just some PR rubbish from Huntsman.

[hectorm]

It would seem that overhead has a great deal to do with the price of a Savile Row suit but upon closer examination maybe not. So what is driving prices? Overhead? Handwork? Cache? Reputation?

A good study on SR “industrial organization” (market, competition, pricing, etc) is long overdue. Maybe it would be a great undertaking for challenging case students at some of our business schools.
While we wait for a definite word, I believe it´s pretty clear that overheads are not the driving force behind the price of a bespoke suit in Savile Row. What drives prices there- as anywhere else- is old supply and demand. This is a very dynamic process.
Overhead does not determine prices but influences costs, more or less depending on the volume of your business (at the same time they may influence demand positively also, i.e.: you want a fireplace and a couple of stag heads on the wall of your store while you pick your cloth). This may sound professorial but there´s no way around it. If given your level of business you try to charge prices based on covering your overhead, you might find yourself equally out of business because at those prices people are no willing to order any more suits. Demand for bespoke suits seems to be pretty inelastic to changes in prices but this is within certain limit. If Floppington Bros. decided to charge ten thousand pounds for their one button poplin suits, very few Sultans would still be calling, right?
The high costs of overhead and the impossibility of charging higher prices have lead to some of the big firms to operating their Savile Road traditional bespoke side of the business at no profit (or even at some loss). It was quite a revelation when Richard Anderson stated in his book that for years the only profitable operation of Huntsman was its involvement with a shoe tree factory. The goose of the golden eggs has been somewhere else. Mainly in the revenues of licenses to the Japanese or Chinese (think Huntsman or Henry Poole for example), the development of RTW lines (think several), and also in the “traveling tailors” wing (the latter with a particular set of overhead and costs).
Handwork, by the same token, is part of the costs and could be seen under the same light of the comment on overhead/prices above.
Cache may certainly help to charge higher prices than those of an unsung Mickey Mouse operation at a dark basement on the Row, but to keep that reputation in the long run it would have to be associated to some kind of extra service, overhead and therefore to some cost.

[dempsy444]

I think it is a good question and I will speculate, but i say up front that I have no real knowledge of the industry outside of having ordered a few commissions.

Part of it may in fact be be cost of production at one shop vs. another (say the in-house work at Huntsman vs. contracted work at another) but my guess is it is partly marketing strategy and partly opportunity cost you are paying for. Marketing because there is cache in being the most expensive choice particularly when you are dealing with prestige goods. If people are willing to pay the SR premium to get what they assume is the "best" suit in England then it follows they will pay a tailors premium to get what they may assume is the "best" suit on Savile Row. Hence, Huntsman marksits price above its neighbors. There of course is no strong correlation between price and best here, but this is how some people think when it comes to price. In California, I see it all the time in wine marketing. A winery needs to have a $75 bottle to be taken seriously. Some products are "Giffen" goods and I suspect bespoke suits are this for some people. I remember when the iPhone came out, a guy came up with the idea to sell an $800 app that was simply a screen saver of a ruby that rotated around so to show the world one was so rich he didn't care. People actually downloaded it. Apple had to kill it saying it went against the spirit of the iTunes marketplace.

Maybe Opportunity cost because when a long established House on the Row has its staff make a suit for you, it's time away from making a suit for their other customers who have the deep pockets to pay $8K for a suit and not notice the price. A couple of years ago I met a very well regarded tailor in New York who, when I asked what his suit price starts at, he said apologetically "$6K" and then explained I was competing against the city's high paid bankers who took a liking to him. The price of his entry suits rose $1K in only one year as a result. We both knew he made a damn good suit worth the money, but also knew that his suits didn't get $1K better in the last year. They were just as well made the year before. As his clients got richer so did his Prices.

This last point probably doesn't explain Huntsman vs. Poole since they are both on the Row and have been around long enough to have each accumulated deep pocketed customers. I suppose it would though if Huntsman has done a better job of building its client book at the top.

[Manself]

To return to one of the original questions: the greatest attention to detail, in terms of craft and make, that I've witnessed in London was paid by two Tommy Nutter alumni:
Joe Morgan of Chittleborough and Morgan, and Edward Sexton.
Both these tailors favour a bold and structured style, and both display a dedication to their craft that really impressed me.

[hectorm]

my guess is it is partly marketing strategy and partly opportunity cost you are paying for.

No doubt that is part of the equation, but I think the posts on this thread are ignoring the fact that "traditional bespoke" is just one of the operations (and sometimes very minor) in the revenue structure of the bigger Savile Row firms. Once you consider that "traditional bespoke” main contribution is to the firm´s prestige and only marginally to its profit (or maybe to a loss), then pricing follows other considerations
The information contained in Richard Anderson´s book, Bespoke: Savile Row ripped and smoothed regarding organization, revenue and cost structure in the industry is a good starting point for any well founded analysis.