pant pockets

[old henry]

Renfield, could you please ask your tailors how they feel about fuzed fronts. If I dont have to shrink my cloth and only need two fittings AND can fuze my fronts I will save so much time. Could you please ask. Thank You. Frank

[dopey]

Dempsey:
This is puzzling. I just had a second fitting on a Huntsman suit and, while it might have been close enough to make the adjustments and ship to me, they suggested that they instead bring it back on the next trip for a final try on. This has always been my experience - they do not try to rush things out the door. Since we are dealing with different people from H, that may explain things, but more likely this is perhaps just one of those mistakes that happen. In any event, I hope Huntsman will work to put things right. Have you called your salesperson since you received the suit?

[dempsy444]

Dopey:

Interesting. I'm glad it is working out that way for you. May I ask how long you have been a Huntsman customer? This was my first commission with Huntsman. As you point out, I have a different team in San Francisco. I would say the tailor is good and friendly but was just too confident. Given the pants, I suspect he never inspected the final product before it shipped perhaps having too much confidence in the remaining chain of production.

In any event, I sent a good 20 photos to him at all angles so he could see the product. He replied immediately saying the fixes would be easy. The plan was always to meet in March when he is in San Francisco to correct anything he didn't get quite right. And that is what we will do, it's just that those corrections are a lot bigger than I think anyone would have imagined. I certainly didn't expect this. From talking to some folks, it sounds like the suit can be fixed to the point of being good bespoke but not great bespoke. Such is the risk with the first commission. I will admit, I am a relatively naive customer when it comes to bespoke. One of the reasons I went to Huntsman was I was looking for a firm that had such a high standard of workmanship that I didn't have worrry about being naive or about the complexity of the process. In a way, I was paying for safety from myself and my naivete, and the peace of mind that I could trust I'm in good hands while I go about my work. My dissapointment isn't that the suit won't be the best or that I have to wait longer, it's that Huntsman didn't play that role. I wanted to see the same level of caution, care and precision that your team seems to be deploying. Going forward with this suit, I will just give the team the chance to fix it but firmly communicate what I expect rather than simply trusting.

Regarding the sales person, I don't bother working with him much. Very jovial in person but I have found he is not very responsive. Yet the tailor is, so I just go to him directly.

[dopey]

Dempsey:
To answer your questions--Though I haven't bought much, I have been a Huntsman customer for a long time. Of course, that is only because they take so long because of all the fittings Seriously, it was close to a year and a half and probably four fittings or more from order to delivery of my first suit. I believe that even after it was done, the coat had to be adjusted. Also, one of the side adjusters came off, so they also took the trousers back to fix. While they were very embarrassed about the side adjuster breaking because that was a quality control issue, I think they treated the adjustment to the fit as normal, as did I (which is why I can't recall for sure if it happened on that suit). In any case, I know I asked them to revise the coat of my second suit post-delivery as well, which they did happily. That hadn't been necessary on the last two items I received
In total, I have three suits and a sportcoat from them and just had a fitting on a fourth suit.

I have been especially happy with Huntsman's service and recall saying to someone that Huntsman appeared to be selling two products, clothing and customer service, and that they take both seriously. So I hope your experience turns out fine in the end, though you may need to be patient.

As for your expectations, part of the problem with traveling tailors is that they ship the final product rather than have you try the suit on in the shop before walking out with it. When I used a local tailor, I on occasion something was not quite right when I went to pick up the finished coat or suit. In that circumstance, I didn't really consider this a botched job since the tailor just keeps it to fix and then calls me back. With a traveling tailor, you are stuck with something you don't like hanging in your closet until they return, and that seems much worse, though it is really the same thing. Mistakes happen. The measure of quality then is how mistakes are addressed. Better, still, is to see how eager the tailor is to fix something rather than try to convince you to just keep it as is. But the customer also is responsible for being sane and knowing what is and isn't a reasonable expectation - otherwise, he will drive the tailor and himself crazy (to be clear, your pants need to be fixed or remade). If Huntsman looks at your suit, agrees that it needs to be fixed and does it, I think they will have met any reasonable expectation. The final test is whether or not you like how you look in the suit when it is all done. On the other hand, you will probably still feel better if, on your next order (if there is one), you have them take the time to slip the final product on as a try-on.

Again - good luck.

[dempsy444]

As for your expectations, part of the problem with traveling tailors is that they ship the final product rather than have you try the suit on in the shop before walking out with it. When I used a local tailor, I on occasion something was not quite right when I went to pick up the finished coat or suit. In that circumstance, I didn't really consider this a botched job since the tailor just keeps it to fix and then calls me back. With a traveling tailor, you are stuck with something you don't like hanging in your closet until they return, and that seems much worse, though it is really the same thing. Mistakes happen. The measure of quality then is how mistakes are addressed. Better, still, is to see how eager the tailor is to fix something rather than try to convince you to just keep it as is. But the customer also is responsible for being sane and knowing what is and isn't a reasonable expectation - otherwise, he will drive the tailor and himself crazy (to be clear, your pants need to be fixed or remade). If Huntsman looks at your suit, agrees that it needs to be fixed and does it, I think they will have met any reasonable expectation. The final test is whether or not you like how you look in the suit when it is all done. On the other hand, you will probably still feel better if, on your next order (if there is one), you have them take the time to slip the final product on as a try-on.

Thanks for sharing your experience, perspective and advice. Based on my limited experience, I agree with your conclusion that a flaw with the travelling tailor system is the final product is shipped to you and one is stuck with it until the tailor visits again. I think because of that it beggs for more fittings, not fewer. I should have realized that. As for how Huntsman reacts to the product when I see them next, your advice seems good. I'll look for them to be fully committed to a total fix. My inclination is to meet with them, have them fix it, and then bring it to me on the next visit rather than ship it, so that there is less risk of the same problem happening again.

[hectorm]

I´m wondering if Peter Smith or David Coleridge ever read the LL.

[alden]

They absolutely do read the LL and I have had emails from some of the staff saying how much they enjoy it.

Michael

[hectorm]

Well then, if these posts by Dempsy are for real, they have some food for thought with his feedback.
As I´ve written before in the LL, my tailor would hate me for life if, instead of taking my case to him in the first place, I posted my doubts so openly in the internet. May be modern communications technology has brought us a new era of the sacred sartorial relationship.

[alden]

The real message in this thread is to, once again, alert new bespeakers to pay special attention to what is going on and move forward at a conservative and sure pace when using a traveling service. Errors like this are relatively rare and they are normally made right but it is best to avoid them altogether.

Finally, and I do not know where this idea came from, dempsey444 is absolutely real, a young man taking his first steps in bespoke who had the good sense to air his questions here in a supportive and objective environment. He did not reveal the name of the party concerned, it was mentioned by another member.

Like Dopey, I am hopeful that his situation will be handled professionally.

Michael

[NJS]

I blasted off the possibility that Dempsey might have been a troll. On trust of the facts stated above, I retract that 'bluster' and apologize for it - but the bespoke process is a conversation and not a recital; it is true construction and not a mere assembly. Most customers are not designers; let alone architects or engineers but they are, by virtue of the fact that they are in the bespoke process at all, people (women as much as men), who have arrived at the stage when they realize that there are advantages in bespeaking clothes and other equipment. If the suit in question looked wrong enough to bring the questions here then it was wrong enough to suggest necessary tweaking to the tailor, at (or even after) the last fitting. It is highly improbable that the tailors in question would not have addressed the issues, had they been raised, along the way, and inconceivable that they will not address them, if raised, in the future.

Having said that, and more generally: I remain unrepentant in having said that there is abroad in the world the notion that it is absolutely fine to earn more than one truly deserves (main board members of certain UK banks just before the banks' virtual bankruptcy); to sell things for more than they are really worth (property speculators and their cardboard buildings and their hangers-on): these are the foundation stones for the gradually unfolding (and continuing), economic mess of the 'developed' world.
NJS

[old henry]

[quote="old henry"]Renfield, could you please ask your tailors how they feel about fuzed fronts. If I dont have to shrink my cloth and only need two fittings AND can fuze my fronts I will save so much time. Could you please ask. Thank You. Frank[/quote]
I also learned from Sir Renfield that a tailor cannot tell if a cloth is substantial by just handling it, therefore he must make a complete suit first. I never knew this. But I do now..Thank you again. Keep em coming.

[dempsy444]

Horror pictures, the genesis of a documentary, an old grunge about shrinking, accusation of possible trolling, traveling bullshitting tailors, last post ever, warnings, apologies, RTW conspiracy theory, Neapolitan anecdotes,....... Gentlemen, we have overdone ourselves (once more).
Dempsy, here's another fine (nice) mess you've gotten us into with your innocent question.

This was good by the way:)

[dempsy444]

The real message in this thread is to, once again, alert new bespeakers to pay special attention to what is going on and move forward at a conservative and sure pace when using a traveling service. Errors like this are relatively rare and they are normally made right but it is best to avoid them altogether.

Thanks, well said!

[Renfield]

Renfield, could you please ask your tailors how they feel about fuzed fronts. If I dont have to shrink my cloth and only need two fittings AND can fuze my fronts I will save so much time. Could you please ask. Thank You. Frank...
I also learned from Sir Renfield that a tailor cannot tell if a cloth is substantial by just handling it, therefore he must make a complete suit first. I never knew this. But I do now..Thank you again. Keep em coming.

Curses, you have awakened me form my slumber.

Thank you!

Lets reacquaint ourselves with what I originally said:

In Britain most, if not all modern cloth is 'set' at the finishers using a process called 'London Shrunk'

I have asked several tailors over the years about soaking / sponging cloth and they are of the opinion that if the cloth is going to move when cutting/making up then it will move whether the tailor has shrunk / sponged the cloth or not. The consensus view amongst those I asked was to allow for it in the cutting.

Tailoring being an old, traditional craft, old habits die hard. If the tailor wants to sponge it then...let him get on with it.

My tailors (plural because we all have to face, even tailors, certain eventualities) do not say/or have said that cloth does not shrink (Linen is a classic example), what they dispute is that soaking/sponging the cloth will rectify the problem if the shrinking process employed by the finishers has failed. This is a reasonable conclusion, given that the shrinking process which has been scientifically developed and tested over years is a far more arduous process than any that could be reasonably employed by a tailor. With this in mind, their solution is to allow for possible movement of the cloth in the cutting. Pinning the cloth same. Their view is to let it move, don't fight it, but allow for it. Again, that is their opinion based on their experience. This is not alchemy, hoodoo or black magic just their experience.

Two Fiitings max:

There is an old saying that occasionally does the rounds amongst certain tailors that goes something like: 'if a Tailor requires more than 3 fittings he doesn't know what he's doing'

Too glib in my opinion.

Each customer is unique, therefore poses a unique challenge. Some figures are just more difficult to cut and fit than others and may require more fittings, even more so if its a first order. There are also different skill levels amongst tailors and different personalities who advocate different approaches. These all work against any such prescription.

As for my own tailors, let me assure you, that none of the tailors I have used would ever tell another tailor (unless they employed them, maybe) how many fittings they should use. Never! Again, every client is different, every tailor is different.

The ability to divine the quality of cloth by touch alone:

Have you ever been disappointed by the way a cloth has made up, a cloth you know well or perhaps a cloth you felt should tailor well but didn't? You probably have, every tailor probably has. Why did your hand fail you?

We also have to accept that cloth manufacturing and textile technology has changed hugely. We just know more about fibre preparation, weaving, finishing and its effects than we did even a few decades ago. Much of the cloth, weight for weight is just better made these days. Finishing is not widely understood, even amongst tailors but is hugely important to the performance of cloth and is a science in itself.

With this in mind and being honest, have you ever been surprised by how well a lightweight cloth has made up, better than your expectations? My tailor has, and he's old school, 70+ years old. Your hand may have told you one story, but making it up told you another.

Recently, my current tailor had to remake a DJ out of a completely different cloth (same composition, different merchant) than the one he nearly always recommends to his clients. He had problems pressing it (he didn't elaborate on the technicalities of the problem but I could ask him if you wish). This was a cloth he'd used for years. On contacting the merchants for a refund (which they duly gave) they requested if he would kindly return the cloth (now, part suit) for analysis, which he duly did. A month later, whilst contacting them about another matter he asked them about the cloth he'd sent back and they informed him that several bolts of this particular cloth had been found to be faulty (the finishing process had gone wrong, apparently). Rubbing the cloth betwixt finger and thumb would not have revealed this.

A question, why is there no consensus between tailors on the best cloths? Why do some tailors recommend some cloths that others do not? If the hand is so reliable, why is this so? Maybe, these tailors recommend these cloths because they have actually made them up and know how the cloth actually performs under iron and needle. Now there's a thought!

On a lighter, hopefully more humorous note. I do wish you could divine the quality of manufacturing materials by hand alone as I could do away with all the highly educated and well salaried metallurgists and material scientists I employ. I could then just let the machinists and fabricators stroke the metal to gauge its material properties and performance but I doubt my clients in the aerospace, oil and nuclear industries would be impressed.

As for the knighthood, well, I have the fellowship so I have probably over achieved already, but who knows.

Take care, Frank.

[tteplitzmd]

I think the lesson here is, once again, if you're not perceived as a high value target, you're not likely to get a lot of service from some of these established businesses. There is no nice way to spin it. Clearly this tailoring house could do better, often does better, but not for this particular new customer. I have seen this from U.K. and Italian bespoke makers. The errors in the U.S. on the other hand have been more like sloppy attention to requested details, but not in the workmanship or fit. It's also not as easy to hustle you or hide from you at home.

Mr. Dopey seems to have been on a roll with visits to big names as a new customer. Some of us have not been as fortunate.