No Brown in town?

[NJS]

Gruto - that's rather a sweeping condemnation of what I had hoped was a reasonably measured analysis. The cartoon of Brummell et al., in Almack's is at this link:

http://thenakedapegetsdressed.blogspot.com/

dates from not after 1815 and show at least one man in a brown coat. I said that Brummell started the male fashion for monochrome: which gradually developed during the Regency; the reign of Geo IV; William IV and, most importantly, Victoria and, to some extent, continues in male evening dress and city work wear. However, I am happy to take it that brown is making a comeback.

[Gruto]

Gruto - that's rather a sweeping condemnation of what I had hoped was a reasonably measured analysis. The cartoon of Brummell et al., in Almack's is at this link:

http://thenakedapegetsdressed.blogspot.com/

dates from not after 1815 and show at least one man in a brown coat. I said that Brummell started the male fashion for monochrome: which gradually developed during the Regency; the reign of Geo IV; William IV and, most importantly, Victoria and, to some extent, continues in male evening dress and city work wear. However, I am happy to take it that brown is making a comeback.

The 19th century has a reputation of being dull or monochrome in terms men's dress. I cannot recognize that story when I look at old paintings. Frock coats were not only made of black, charcoal and black. Brown coats, especially, was often there too.

By the way, Windsor writes about his dislike of his fathers brown dress. I will find the quote. For now just a painting of George V in what looks to be brown city dress:



- and some artists in grey, black, blue and brown coats (1837):

[NJS]

I think, Gruto, that if I told you that one of our cats is called 'Flash', you would probably say that you doubt it.

I have never, ever said that men have not worn brown suits and brown coats and brown shoes. The phrase 'no brown in town' should not be taken too literally as referring to everywhere, at any time, in London (or wherever). It just means that there used to be a custom more, rather than less, observed, from Victorian times, through the twentieth century, that men in London, in the course of their professions, and in government (including its administration), tended to wear black coats (then blue or grey suits) and black shoes in the day time and monochrome evening dress in the evenings. Some of this still applies and just look at most modern politicians, internationally, across the board. Kenneth Clarke is the main exception that springs to mind as he affects to wear brown suede brogues with grey and blue suits. I think that he is in pursuit of the intellectual, scruffy look: the nearest any Briton ever got to sprezzatura.

Most of the photographs of the era AD 1850-2000 clearly demonstrate that this is so. However, lounging around smoking pipes, and at other commendable leisure, they might have worn anything. George V was not perpetually on duty and, in common with men such as Sir Arthur Quiller- Couch (who had a bright brown tweed coat), might well have worn brown clothes. However, he would not have worn them 'on duty' so to speak and certainly not at Court, when he observed the custom of wearing a black frock coat: not a brown one; not a grey one; not a blue one: a black one. After he died so, more or less did the frock coat but monochrome lived on for a while and still does amongst certain men.

I could save time and write your reply for you!

[hectorm]

Reading this I can almost say the same thing about Italians. They have a clannish, tribal, gregarious side to them as well. It is so apparent in fashion. They have a tendency to wear exactly the same thing to be recognized as part of a group.

Very unusual observation regarding the Italian, and I would love to know some examples of the "exactly the same things they wear to be recognized as part of a group" that recalled Alden´s attention. I guess every society displays these self identification signals when it comes to clothes. But I believe we should distinguish those whose main purpose is to show class, clan or group membership, from those whose main purpose is to look good before the eyes of others (women´s eyes and men´s too). In the case of Italians I believe their gregarious side is very secondary. I don´t think they are mainly concerned in wearing tweed for looking as "landed aristocracy" or no socks for looking like "club fellows". Of course there are fashion guidelines which Italians follow, but not in order to be recognized as part of a group (besides, of course, the group of those attractively -for their taste- dressed).

[couch]

The 19th century has a reputation of being dull or monochrome in terms men's dress. I cannot recognize that story when I look at old paintings. Frock coats were not only made of black, charcoal and black. Brown coats, especially, was often there too.

I think it is a mistake to used round centuries as the unit of generalization about this. As I understand it, NJS is correct in emphasizing Brummell's influence in steering the fashion toward more sober dark coats (including especially dark blue) in the later Regency, but some color, including especially decorated waistcoats but also a variety of dark hues for the newer suits remained common for both civil and social occasions well into the century. Here's the U.S. Senate in 1850:

and here's Prince Albert at about the same time:

I've always been under the impression that it was the death of Prince Albert in 1861 and Queen Victoria's lifelong adoption of deep mourning dress that changed a trend toward restrained but varied color in town clothes for men into a practical mandate for black (the correct full mourning suit at that time was a black frock coat and trousers; later a black morning cutaway with black trousers replaced the stripes or checks of formal day dress), eventually relaxing to include the grays and dark blues influenced by half-mourning. After Victoria's death, Edwardians began expanding the palate again, but conservative taste retained the sobriety of the last 40 years of Victoria's reign at least until the first World War unsettled the old order. And throughout that time London still set the standard for men's dress in most cosmopolitan cities in Europe and the U.S.

[NJS]

I agree, Couch, that vests and even trousers remained buff for quite some time and that it was Prince Albert's early death that increased the blackness; creating a curious correspondence between such power and territorial possession enjoyed by Britain at the time and such outward solemnity. Moreover, I also agree that it is not possible to place exact dating on such phenomena.

Here's are a couple of late Victorian/early Edwardian examples of the continuation of light vests:


[politician Joseph Chamberlain]


[Scott of the Antarctic]

and one from the 1930s:


[gossip columnist Lord Castlerosse]

and another [Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch kicking over the traces; albeit in a provincial town]:

[Simon A]

I have seen colour photos of affluent and middle class people in Central Europe between the wars, as well as costumes in such movies as "The Pianist" that one hopes were well researched. In these photos of city professionals in Poland and the former dominions of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, brown city suits seem to outnumber grey or black suits by a sizeable margin. Perhaps our friends from Poland, Romania and so on could confirm whether they believe this to be accurate? These countries were prosperous and continuously exposed to cultural trends from both west and east at the time.

[NJS]

Not so very long ago:-

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/342928 ... 6E4BAF89B1

http://br.bing.com/images/search?q=city ... ORM=IDFRIR

http://br.bing.com/images/search?q=city ... ORM=IDFRIR

http://br.bing.com/images/search?q=city ... ORM=IDFRIR

http://br.bing.com/images/search?q=city ... ORM=IDFRIR

http://br.bing.com/images/search?q=city ... ORM=IDFRIR

[Gruto]

I have this theory that daguerreotype and photography have created a systematic misconception of men's dress in the 1900th century making it duller than it was in real life. Violet, brown, green and red were around among city gents (at least artists) but these colors look like dark grey or black on the photos. Maybe I am wrong.

But, I do think that there are many so-called rules today, which ought to be reality tested more. For instance, I read somewhere - probably Flusser or Antongiavanni - that Italians have introduced wearing brown shoes with a navy suit. Reality, in this case represented by a painting of Edward Munch, which he painted in 1904 ("The Frenchman"), shows another story:



Indeed, Munch could have changed the colours of the shoes. However, I don't think he did. Munch intensified colours. He didn't change them.

BTW, I have found the Windsor quote about his father: "He preferred brown and grey suits to the more fashionable blue, once remarking that he had seen quite enough blue in the Navy."

[NJS]

Brown shoes and a navy blue suit to me just look ugly. If you want to wear brown shoes wear a brown or a grey or a lovat suit!

[Marwood]

For it depends entirely on the brown. A rich dark brown looks very smart with a navy suit I think.

[rogiercreemers]

Brown shoes and a navy blue suit to me just look ugly. If you want to wear brown shoes wear a brown or a grey or a lovat suit!

How do you combine brown shoes and suit? I find I always run into the issue of the suit and shoes being too close in shade.

[Slewfoot]

Brown shoes and a navy blue suit to me just look ugly. If you want to wear brown shoes wear a brown or a grey or a lovat suit!

How do you combine brown shoes and suit? I find I always run into the issue of the suit and shoes being too close in shade.

Easy: dark brown suede. Then again, I wear that with most anything!

[hectorm]

How do you combine brown shoes and suit? I find I always run into the issue of the suit and shoes being too close in shade.

Easy: dark brown suede. Then again, I wear that with most anything!

And then again, even with suede shoes, the shade of brown is still important. And I would add that for pulling it off successfully with suede shoes it would help if the cut of the suit is slim and modern. An example:

[Simon A]

I'm not sure how the last photo demonstrates harmony between shoes and suit. If you have Bryn Terfel and the Portsmouth Sinfonia performing together, it is still a cacophony.