Advice requested re first bespoke jacket

[Julian]

I have a question.... How many fittings did you have on this first suit ? A balance issue should be caught early.

If you count the one where I picked up the jacket then two. I made a total of three visits to the tailor, specifically:

Visit 1 - Cloth, lining and style selection and measurements taken.

Visit 2 (Fitting 1) - What I understand to be the classic basted fitting, i.e. tacked together with white cotton, only one sleeve attached, shoulder padding rested onto the shoulders during the fitting, etc.

Visit 3 (Fitting 2) - The finished jacket as taken away and photographed above.

I hasten to add that the tailor did not give me the impression on my final visit (visit 3) that this was the end of the process and further alterations and fittings were anticipated. I took the decision however that I wanted to collect my thoughts and understand why the jacket felt wrong to me (which this thread is helping me to do) rather taking overly-rushed decisions on what adjustments to make - I wanted to take the jacket home at that stage to ponder in my own time. Clearly as a new customer I felt it unreasonable to expect the tailor to let me take the jacket away with 70% owing on the balance so I didn't put them in the situation of expressing concern and I paid the full balance on the understanding that I was likely to come back and request some changes.

In retrospect I should have probably asked for an intermediate fitting so that I could tiptoe towards the end result on my first commission and I will do that the next time. I think that I also need to have a discussion when I next go in as to how I did stand for the basted fitting so that, if the error is down to me overly-correcting my stance to try and avoid the classic mistake of adopting a overly-upright stance, or if my natural stance is more stooped than I am aware (and really, I don't think the latter is the case), then I can take steps to mininimise or avoid any similar issue for the future.

- Julian

[old henry]

In my opinion two fittings--maybe three in some shops-- were skipped.
This being a first suit. A first suit.
And you seem to be blaming yourself.. Stop that.

[alden]

I had assumed you had fittings and that the balance issue would have been discovered during same. So I imagined the posture issue as a possible explanation given the pictures. But two to three fittings seem to have gone missing as Frank Shattuck has pointed out. If a tailor can get things right without fittings, so be it. But the tailor in this case seems to have missed his mark.

[old henry]

Especially on a first suit, right, Michael ?
Ya gotta get the paper right. That should be done before the cloth is cut.

[Julian]

Thank you Frank and Michael for your continuing input. I will try to get back to the tailor later this week to discuss reworking the front and on this point I would appreciate some expert opinions.

My tentative plan involves addressing two issues, one that it now seems clearer is of the tailor's making and the other is of mine. I intend to ask for the front to be reworked to fix the balance issues and, although there might be enough fabric to do what Leonard mentioned and drop it from the shoulders, I would still be left with the hacking pockets that I specified in a moment of madness and now find that I dislike. A possibility that occurs to me is to pay for the additional fabric required to remake the front from scratch so that I can also switch to straight pockets and hence address both the fit and the style modifications at the same time.

The two issues that occur to me relating to the practicalities of my plan outlined above are:

1) How much colour consistency will there be between the original fabric (which will have been ordered sometime between my measurements and the basted fitting, i.e. sometime in August) and now? The fabric is Porter & Harding Glenroyal (44512). Does colour control tend to be good between production runs? Might P&H even still be fulfilling orders from the same batch as was used during the summer?

2) My plan is based on the assumption that the amount of effort involved in reworking the front by reusing the existing fabric and dropping from the shoulders vs remaking with fresh cloth is about the same but, if this is not the case, then I want to be fair to the tailor. Should I expect extra tailoring charges?

And you seem to be blaming yourself.. Stop that.

Thank you for that. I felt it more honourable to start with an open mind and to be very open to the possiblity that my inexperience had contributed significantly to the outcome. Part of the reason for opening up this whole thread was to understand what went wrong and I am now coming to the understanding that this shouldn't have happened and the fault does not lie with me. Your admonishment is duly noted and taken on board.

I think the the one lesson that I have learned here (apart from the very personal exposure to issues of front balance and that I don't like hacking pockets) is that next time I will explicitly enquire at each fitting as to exactly what state the garment will be in at the next fitting and, if I feel that more steps towards the finish are being taken than I am comfortable with, I shall express that concern and agree an intermediate fitting with a clear understanding of what elements will still be open to change. Once my pattern is nailed down this will become less of an issue but for the next commission baby steps seem prudent.

- Julian

[Leonard Logsdail]

Julian,
Having looked at your photographs, your jacket is clearly short in the front balance. One saving grace, though, is that it is a plain fabric. There are three ways to reduce the ills of a jacket with a short front balance - the first we have already discussed, but the second and third ways might just save it for you, or a combination of the three.

Your tailor needs to shorten the back balance by passing the back down through the side seams. (a short front balance automatically means a long back balance)

If you were to take a piece of chalk and draw a line across the side seam from the front to the back, and then draw another line on the back only about 3/4" to 1" above that line, you would need to un-pick the side seam and move the line down on the back to the lower on the front and then re-sew (both sides, of course). This has the same effect on the coat as lengthening the front balance, as discussed. You would need to shorten the jacket at the back accordingly and, depending on what you think of the back length, this might be your only stumbling block. The coat will be shorter when finished. But if your tailor did this alteration, along with lengthening the front balance, you might just end up with a coat you are happy with. And a third assist would be for your tailor to actually do a combination of the three alterations. If he lengthens the front through the shoulders he already has to take the collar off,un-pick the shoulders and, to do it properly, take the sleeves out, too. When marking the front to be dropped (and crookened at the same time) he could shave 1/2" off all the way across the back. With a coat that looks as your does, your tailor is already in for a fair amount of no-charge alterations, I would really suggest he do a combination of all three.

This might all sound very complicated, and i am sorry if it does, but, firstly, your tailor should see this alteration himself (assuming your coat is a full bespoke) but if you can show him that you partly understand what needs to be done, there is a greater chance of it happening.

Once again, good luck.

[Julian]

Julian,
Having looked at your photographs, your jacket is clearly short in the front balance. One saving grace, though, is that it is a plain fabric. There are three ways to reduce the ills of a jacket with a short front balance...

Thank you Leonard. Your descriptions were very clear and understandable.

Apropos my most recent post, is there a fourth way to address the short front balance if one isn't restricting oneself to using existing fabric, namely to order extra fabric and recut the front? Did you not mention this option because you were focussing on re-use of existing material or was it due to colour matching or other concerns that remove this option from consideration?

I ask because of the possibility of addressing the hacking pocket issue although I suspect that the inbalance in the front is contributing to my aversion. The short upper part and longer lower part of the front sets the pockets quite high, an effect exagerated by the hacking since the front edge of the pocket is itself raised relative to the set of a straight pocket. It is possible that, by addressing the front balance, the pockets will move down somewhat and that will make them more acceptable to my eye but I am still very tempted by the idea of switching to straight pockets.

- Julian

[Leonard Logsdail]

Putting new fronts in a coat is an extremely expensive job. You might do a deal with the tailor regarding price. But if, even after the proposed alterations which will definitely reduce the severity of the pocket angle, you still do not think you will like it or, more importantly, wear it because of the pocket angle, then it might be better you start from scratch.

There is no easy, or cheap solution, I'm afraid.

[snapper]

Julian, I have no tailoring experience so my suggestion might be quite naive but would it be possible to have flaps made for the pockets and have them sewn on as straight as possible so that the actual pocket opening runs diagonaly behind them? They would then be out of sight but the flaps could possibly create the impression that they are straight pockets. May I just say that you have acted as a perfect gentleman regarding this commision and my compliments to your good manners.

[Costi]

Nothing much to add to the posts above... except that tailors - if not among the few that can hardly wait to see the client out the door with balance paid - tend to think fittings are a bother to the customer. Even now my tailor sometimes gives me an apologetic look when he tells me he thinks we should have another fitting in case of doing something special or when altering a coat (what a nightmare that is!) for -10 kilos. Just make it clear to the tailor that you don't mind coming in for as many fittings as he requires and you are in no hurry. Has the reworking started already?

[Julian]

Snapper, Costi, Leonard,

My apologies for my lack of response, for some reason notification of new posts got switched off on this thread so I was unaware that there had been additional activity.

Snapper - I also considered straighter flaps to at least partially hide the pocket slant but I am deferring that decision until the reworked jacket comes back. Thanks also for the comments regarding my handling of this matter. It has been my intention throughout to handle these issues in a gentlemanly manner so it is encouraging to read that, at least in one person's eyes, I have managed that. I should also say that my tailor has been the same; never have I been made to feel in the slightest bit awkward about expressing my concerns and requesting changes.

Costi - in answer to your specific question, reworking is underway. My tailor suggested that the rework should be to rotate the front which, as per Leonard's earlier suggestion, involves unstitching at the shoulders and side seams but, rather than simply drop the front, to also pivot the front parts slightly so that the front quarters are opened up. This seems very sensible to me since not only will it address the balance but will also create more open front quarters and should reduce the angle of the pockets (although, given that I suspect the degree of rotation might be fairly subtle, that effect might be minor but any reduction in the slant will be welcome none the less). I already felt that the buttoning at the lower button and hole were too loose so I think that the tightening up of the lower buttoning point due to this rotation will be yet another benefit.

At the moment I'm not chasing them for a progress update on the rework (which is a couple of weeks overdue) since I am perfectly happy to avoid the bedlam that is central London in December. I hope to go in and try out the rework sometime in January.

- Julian

[couch]

Julian,

You have received wonderful counsel in this thread, and I'm glad your tailor and you are embarked on further and doubtless fruitful steps to arrive at an improved fit and pattern. To that end, I'd like to articulate one observation which has not yet been made, though implied in Michael's initial supposition that your posture in the photos is more erect than when you were initially measured up.

In the side views, the rear of both sleeves seems to have a quite a bit of slack cloth at the back of the sleeve and sleevehead, leading to several folds showing in the sleeves in the rear-view photo. My first impression was that the sleeve pitch looked too high, which would be consistent with the posture change mentioned above, since your arms would naturally be hanging farther back when standing more erect, causing slack and bunching at the rear sleeveheads and sleeves.

The short front balance, the skirt hem angling upward toward the front in the side views, and the fact that the vertical grain of the cloth is visibly crossing under the button point (making a V-shape) rather than running more or less straight down are all also consistent with a posture change, though simply misjudging the balance could also account for some of them. In any case, your tailor's proposal to rotate the fronts seems well-judged to me since it would correct the crossing quarters and help level the skirt. The rotation would presumably involve adding some length from the shoulder seam at the inside of the fronts, so that will also help lower the button point a bit.

When all these things are done, at the next fitting, be sure to check the sleeves again when you are in your natural posture. In your current side-view photos, the front edges of the sleeves hang pretty cleanly, so it's hard to be sure that the pitch of the entire sleeve is in fact too high. If, in the next fitting the front edges of the sleeves hang well and the rear remains bunched, you might point this out to the tailor. This has happened on a couple of my jackets at the fitting stage (and once after) and the cutter had the offending sleeves reset so that a little more of the cloth was pulled up into the sleevehead at the rear. Or it may just be that lowering the overall sleeve pitch slightly will do the trick. It's also possible that your arm has less bend in it when hanging naturally than the curve of the sleeve pattern anticipates. I don't think this is a major factor here, but it's hard to be sure from pictures. If your tailor thinks it's the case, then he might adjust the sleeve pattern for future jackets slightly.

Keep us posted on progress, and thanks for sharing your adventures.

[Julian]

Julian,

You have received wonderful counsel in this thread, ...

...sleeve pitch...

Keep us posted on progress, and thanks for sharing your adventures.

I have indeed received wonderful counsel and thank you for your observations on the sleeves.

I confess that, as a complete beginner, sleeve pitch was something that I had seen mentioned on a number of occasions but until I read your post I hadn't got round to finding out what it actually meant. I just found a fairly clear and succinct description that I thought I might as well post here in case other beginners like me are interested: http://www.englishcut.com/2006/05/03/hi ... low-pitch/

I will keep you posted on progress which, as mentioned in my last post, will probably be in January.

- Julian