Advice requested re first bespoke jacket

[Julian]

I've just taken delivery of my first ever bespoke commission (a single breasted 2 button tweed jacket). I had read enough on forums to know that this would be a learning experience so I would appreciate some help in making sure I learn all the lessons that I can from my first experience.

Unfortunately the result at this stage is a jacket that I would never wear. I paid my balance and took the jacket away on the basis that I couldn't immediately put my finger on what made it look so wrong to me in the fitting room and that maybe after a bit or breaking in and my getting used to it then it might start to look better to me. I am not laying blame with the tailor, they didn't push me out of the door and are anxious that I come back if I'm not happy, and I can't fault the construction. I believe that the issues are down to a combination of my failing to give clear enough specifications for certain features, my making a wrong decision in one very unfortunate area (because it is probably pretty much impossible to fix), and maybe I should have insisted on an initial forward fitting rather than going from basted straight to final (more on that later).

Now that I've had a few hours at home to look more carefully I can identify 4 issues that trouble me and it would be helpful to know at what stage I could/should have caught and adjusted these during the process and also how easy they are to fix now. The issues are as follows:

1) The first and most glaring issue is that the quarters are pretty much totally closed which makes the jacket look extremey unbalanced, it's almost as if I'm wearing a butcher's apron or maternity smock. I assume that this is easy to fix since mercifully opening closed quarters is cutting away material whereas closing very open quarters would be far more problematic and probably impossible in most cases.

2) The second issue is that the front of the jacket is slightly too short, probably by about half an inch. I would have thought that there is enough extra fabric at the front to extend the length but I'm not sure how that throws off the canvassing.

3) Unfortunately the third issue that leaps out at me is pretty much impossible to fix. I specified slightly hacked pockets and I now find that I really do dislike them. Maybe I will find them less offensive with the quarters opened up because at the moment the hacking, coupled with the fact that the pockets seem to be set at least an inch higher than on my other jackets, emphasises the expanse of fabric on the skirt and makes me look pregnant which is quite a feat since I am 5 foot 8, weigh 135 lbs and have a very flat stomach (not quite a six pack but, when I'm in shape, it's pretty close).

4) The waist suppression (which I like and which seems to me to be perfectly judged) is at my natural waist but the buttoning point (the upper of the two buttons) is about 1.5 or 2 inches above my natural waist. This seems slightly strange to me since I though that the buttoning point was always supposed to be at the natural waist. Since the buttonholes are cut I assume that this is also pretty much impossible to fix and on its own it's not an "I can't wear this" level of fault for me but more an area where I would pay more attention in the future. Unfortunately for this particular jacket the combination of no quarters, high hacking pockets and the higher buttoning point all combine to create a hugely bulbous skirt at the front.

From pictures it appears to me that often the first forward fitting doesn't have button holes cut so had I asked for three fittings rather than two then I could have caught point (4) (had I been experienced enough to look for it). Are pockets typically cut at the first forward fitting or are their positions mocked up by tacking on the pocket flaps but no pockets actually cut? If this was the case then I could also have caught point (3) at this stage.

For the length and quarters I assume this is something that is often tweaked and it was possibly my inexperience that made me not notice the effect during the basted fitting. We did discuss length (point 2) during the basted fitting and agree to lengthen it (to the middle joint of my thumbs) but the final length is short of this mark so that is the one thing that isn't my fault but I suspect it's also not fair to say it's the tailor's fault either. I suspect that these sorts of fine tuning adjustments often need more than one attempt to get right and are routinely tweaked again at a fitting subsequent to the basted fitting. A first forward fitting would definitely have given another opportunity to spot this but I suspect that here there is no real lesson to learn apart from "this is a fairly normal part of the process". Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm now left with something of a dilemma. I need to make a judgement as to whether (a) addressing the first two issues (the quarters and the front length) will result in a jacket that, although carrying a few mistakes, is one that I would be willing to wear in public or (b) the issue with the pockets and/or buttoning point would still bug me so much that I would never wear the jacket. If (a) then clearly I go back and get the adjustments done. If (b) then it seems a bit of a waste of the tailor's time doing the adjustments and I might as well discuss a price for pretty much starting again. I suspect that there is so little that could be reused (apart from the experience) that the price would be very close to a brand new commission in which case I would probably be better doing a brand new commission so that I can get a feel for how a second fabric looks when made up rather than reworking the same fabric as before.

The good news is that the shoulders are one area that has always been an issue for me on RTW stuff and the shoulders on my new jacket seem very good to me. Also, I really like the fabric; more so that I expected after first seeing it at the basted fitting.

The above is a rather long post with few specific questions (only the ones about the status of the pockets and button holes on a first forward fitting) but if anyone has any general observations, wants to correct any of the terminology that I have used, or has answers to my specific questions then all input would be gratefully received.

- Julian

[Leonard Logsdail]

Everything you describe points to a coat that is very short in the front balance. If your tailor has left fabric through the front shoulder, has also left fabric under the collar end (or can obtain more fabric for a new collar) and did not cut the coat with a too low a gorge line, then this might be able to be fixed. But check yourself first. Many clients, for some reason, seem to remember their mother's words about standing up straight ONLY when they look in a mirror at themselves or are being fitted for a suit. So, stand as naturally and relaxed as you can and take another look. If you were standing to attention, some of your problem might disappear. I doubt all of it, though.

Good luck

[Julian]

Everything you describe points to a coat that is very short in the front balance. If your tailor has left fabric through the front shoulder, has also left fabric under the collar end (or can obtain more fabric for a new collar) and did not cut the coat with a too low a gorge line, then this might be able to be fixed. But check yourself first. Many clients, for some reason, seem to remember their mother's words about standing up straight ONLY when they look in a mirror at themselves or are being fitted for a suit. So, stand as naturally and relaxed as you can and take another look. If you were standing to attention, some of your problem might disappear. I doubt all of it, though.

Good luck

By a strange coincidence I have just spent the last hour having my posture and spinal balance commented upon (physiotherapy after a herniated disc). I was told that my back is naturally quite straight and my posture quite upright, including when I wasn't aware that I was being watched. I did however just try the jacket on again and deliberately slump, to the extent that to me it felt as if I was doing an impression of a gorilla or some creature from Tolkein's Middle Earth. The effect was very illuminating and supports your comments above; it looked like a very different jacket and one that was much more pleasing to my eye.

The only remaining issue was those hacking pockets but I can live with that and correct it for future commissions. The cut of the quarters wasn't fixed by my deliberately slumped posture of course but, because of my pronounced forward stoop, it made the front of the jacket fall open such that it gave an impression of open quarters and, in the mirror, created the cutaway that I believe creates a better balance.

It sounds as if my next step should be to go and do my troll impression in front of the tailor's mirror and take the discussions from there.

Thank you for your most insightful comments, and your wishes of good luck. This has certainly been helpful and has given me some hope that more might be rescued from this than I initially thought. However this works out though, I am not too troubled by the experience. I had always felt that my first commission would be more about my education than the garment at the end of it and, even if it turns out to be 100% about my education with no garment (that I feel comfortable wearing) at the end, I will still feel that I have accomplished a worthwhile objective at a justifiable cost.

- Julian

[Leonard Logsdail]

Just because you are prepared to write off your first commission as "experience" does not mean that you should - or that the tailor should let you. First, or twentieth, commission. You should still be able to wear it.

[Julian]

Just because you are prepared to write off your first commission as "experience" does not mean that you should

You're absolutely right. I intend to go back tomorrow to discuss possible modifications which, even if there isn't enough fabric left to drop the front, will definitely involve opening up the quarters somewhat.

The level of detail in your original post, together with your use of the word "client", made me pretty sure that you were a tailor - typing your name into Google just now has confirmed that you most definitely are, and one with impressive credentials. Thank you again for your comments and encouragement.

- Julian

[alden]

Julian

Try a few snapshots for us to see. We may be able to give you better advice though Len has clearly identified the problem.

Take a moment and read the posts on the LL. You will learn that your experience is commonplace. First time bespeakers need to learn to stand as they normally do when being fitted for clothes. A tailor cannot fit two stances, so you have to show him to one that is you (most of the time.)

Cheers

Michael

[Leonard Logsdail]

I'm sorry, Julian. Opening the fronts is not an easy alteration, especially remembering the button holes are already in and, from what you describe, the wrong alteration!

[Julian]

Try a few snapshots for us to see.

As suggested, here are some pictures (I hope I get this right!):

J1.jpg

J2.jpg

J3.jpg

There's a limit of 3 attachments (per post I hope) so it looks as if I need to split this into two posts. Two more photos to follow in the next post...

- Julian

[Julian]

Final basic photo of jacket ...

J4.jpg

And one more because I'm confused by...

I'm sorry, Julian. Opening the fronts is not an easy alteration, especially remembering the button holes are already in and, from what you describe, the wrong alteration!

I might have used the wrong terminology here and got us talking at cross purposes because I'm surprised to hear that the modification that I was thinking of is complicated and affected by the button holes. To see if we are talking at cross-purposes I have used my mastery of the bulldog clip to make a fairly absurd approximation to the modification that I had in mind, as shown in the photo below:

J5.jpg

I'm trying to counter the overall feeling I have that the jacket is too "bulbous" (for want of a better word) below the buttoning point (was my previous use of "skirt" the correct term for this part of the jacket?). I feel that cutting back the quarters a bit (and again, I might be using wrong terminology) lightens things up a bit at the bottom.

I have also noticed that the jacket is about 2cm shorter than anything else I wear. I use the mid-point (top knuckle) of my thumb as the reference point for my jacket length and the lengthening that we discussed in the basted fitting hasn't quite got there (although for some reason, maybe the perspective, the photos make it look as if it is that length). I suspect that a bit of extra length might make the lower part of the jacket look more streamlined.

I could be wrong but I don't think that I'm a slightly paunchy middle aged guy with an unrealistic expectation that a bespoke jacket is going to make me slim. At 5'8" and 135lbs I really am slim and I feel that this jacket is making me look fat.

- Julian

[uppercase]

I could be wrong but I don't think that I'm a slightly paunchy middle aged guy with an unrealistic expectation that a bespoke jacket is going to make me slim. At 5'8" and 135lbs I really am slim and I feel that this jacket is making me look fat.

- Julian

Yes, Julian, you're right: the jacket makes you look fat. You can see that and me too.

As Logsdail said, it's the front balance.

Other than making you fat, I think that the jacket is nice in other aspects. I think that the next commission with this tailor will be better.

Who is your tailor?

[alden]

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=9088

Julian

Read the post above when you have a chance. It looks to me, from the pictures you posted, that the tailor fit a stooped stance and you are standing in a very erect military pose that conflicts with his fitting. How do you stand normally? I suspect you are rather at ease, than at attention!

Cheers

[Julian]

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=9088

Julian

Read the post above when you have a chance. It looks to me, from the pictures you posted, that the tailor fit a stooped stance and you are standing in a very erect military pose that conflicts with his fitting. How do you stand normally? I suspect you are rather at ease, than at attention!

Cheers

I tend to stand quite straight. In fact when posing for those pictures yesterday I was conciously trying not to stand in what feels like me to be an erect military pose and deliberately made a point of letting my posture slump a bit; I was worried that I have overdone things and ended up with an unaturally (for me) slumped posture in those photographs.

Then again, maybe that could mean that you are right but not for the reason it most often happens. I had done a lot of reading on the web about how common a mistake it is for people to adopt their photo/mirror pose when being fitted and how one should try to stand naturally. Maybe I overcompensated during the fitting, went too far in making sure that I wasn't standing at attention, and ended up showing the tailor a slumped posture that I don't actually have.

- Julian

[Julian]

Who is your tailor?

Thanks for the second opinion. I was pretty sure that it wasn't all in my head.

Regarding the tailor, out of courtesy to my tailor I prefer not to associate the tailor's name with the thread while we're still diagnosing issues and possible fixes and before I've had a proper chance to discuss a resolution with them. I am sure that everyone participating in this thread is wise enough to know that it requires a collaborative effort between tailor and client in order to arrive at a satisfactory result and it is likely that more (or all) of the blame lies with my inexperience so, until the thread gets closer to a conclusion, I don't want this to end up the sort of internet thread that could prompt a "don't like the pictures, the tailor must be bad" reaction from casual visitors.

If you're desperate to know then PM me and I'll tell you.

- Julian

[alden]

Julian

At the LL atelier we choose to watch the clients when they are not in front of the mirror, having a coffee or during social time. Then we compare the natural stance to the mirror stance. And we fit the natural stance.

Many times clients do not even realize how they stand. That is pretty understandable. Unless you are being filmed how would see you yourself? And once in front of a mirror or camera, the unnatural stance overrides the natural. It is tricky business sometimes.

The photos show such a classic case of a posture error that I have a hard time imagining a gross intentional error on the tailor's part. Ask him what can be done at this point.

As regards the photos and making you look fat, photos taken from low shooting upwards always make the subject look wider. I am not a photographer and there is probably a good explanation for this. And if the coat is not fitting your natural posture, it will make you look wide as well.

Cheers

[old henry]

I have a question.... How many fittings did you have on this first suit ? A balance issue should be caught early. How many fittings ? But there are many very nice things about this coat. I see a very good hand here. Just a little balance is throwing it off. And you are a class act for not saying the tailor. Frank