Two suits from an 'off the row' London tailor

[mc5581]

Two suits from an 'off the row' London tailor

Here are two suits - quite different from one another - made recently for me by an 'off the row' tailor.

Being just 25 I'm at the beginning of my bespoke journey and find I learn something new with each suit I have made. I'm very involved in the design process, having studied and worked in that field, and enjoy learning about the technical aspects and craftsmanship which goes into making a suit by hand. I have used a variety of tailors now but this guy is my favourite: he is open to new ideas yet always confident in voicing his own strong opinions; he is a perfectionist and I never feel awkward if something needs further work as he's just as keen to improve as I am; lastly, he makes me feel welcome and special and is not only willing but pleased to teach a dilettante how he works

The first suit is single-breasted with 3" notch lapels, breaking approximately 5.5" from the shoulder line. The shoulders are padded (although not heavily) with hand-finished roped sleeveheads and regular breast pocket. The back is double-vented and the front quarters are cut away at a sharper angle than usual. The material is a medium-weight charcoal grey with faint light grey pinstripes and the suit is fully hand-canvassed. The cuffs are cut at an angle (see photo). There are two pockets whose edges are curved front and back and which sit straight with no slant. The button stance is very low - not far off where a one-button suit would be - and the lower button is never fastened. This suit cost £820 and took approximately 4 fittings and 7 weeks to make.

The suit is very comfortable and, although the cut is athletic with a slim waist, broad shoulders and lots of drape in the chest, it does not pull or snag anywhere - I would prefer to sacrifice an angular silhouette rather than have a suit which appears too tight.

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[mc5581]

The second suit is single-breasted with large, appreciably bowed peak lapels. It has natural shoulders (almost no padding) with hand-finished roped sleeveheads and an appreciably curved breast pocket. The back is double-vented and the front quarters are cut away at a sharper angle than usual. The button stance is very slightly lower than is standard and the lower button's position reflects that the fact that it is not designed to be fastened. There are two pockets, cut at a slight angle, whose corners are curved at the front and kick out slightly at the back. The material is an extremely lightweight 120 in charcoal grey with a faint blue windowpane check and the suit is fully hand-canvassed. It cost £900 and took approximately 5 fittings and 7 weeks to make.

I'd be very pleased to hear your thoughts - positive or constructive - and can happily provide answers to any questions or post further photos.

Best,
Matt

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EDIT: I'm not sure why these photos are so blurry. If anyone knows how I can upload these to look clearer (they're very clear on my computer) please let me know, thanks.

[cathach]

Matt,

Firstly thanks for sharing your experiences with us here. I'm also a (young) newcomer to bespoke and I'm delighted to hear how you've got on so well. Its very important that thats what you feel after purchasing and designing your suits. Other more experienced members should be able to suggest technical or aesthetic changes. I'd suggest photos of the rear of the suit to show how the back is shaped and how the vents fall would also be desirable. Can you tell us any more about the fabric choices you made and why? And also how you decided on waist height? Are the trousers with belt or braces?

Micheál

[mc5581]

I will try to get some shots of the back of the jacket. It hangs very cleanly.

The trousers are high-waisted, 20" at the knee and 19" at the bottom. They are flat-fronted and without front pockets (ruin the line, in my opinion) although do have two rear pockets. The crotch/rise is cut high so as to give a nice long leg shape. Zip not buttons - where undetectable, convenience wins.

I chose the material after visiting several cloth shops and looking through the cuts my tailor had in his shop: I never order from fabric swatches, preferring instead to drape the material over something and see how it hangs.

A few of you have contacted me, asking who the tailor is: I'm very happy to divulge this via PM but would prefer not to state it on the public forum.

Look forward to hearing more of your opinions etc. - thanks.

[DFR]

You have in fact posted this elsewhere for some reason but my opinion of it has not improved so here you are:

From what it is possible to tell from two restricted photographs

No 1

Too tight around button point
Shoulders exaggerated - too much padding/roping and so too dominant
Sleeves too short
Lapels slightly too wide.
Quarters excessive


No 2

Whilst peak lapels are OK if you like them, this pattern for the lapel does not look good at all. Slightly redolent of something made by a multiple tailor from 35 years back
Shoulders ditto

I would suggest over much thought and not enough observation of what is about - who allowed these two to leave his work room?

Clearly if you are happy then so be it but not elegant I'm afraid. Sorry.

[jrtjon]

I would suggest over much thought and not enough observation of what is about - who allowed these two to leave his work room? Clearly if you are happy then so be it but not elegant I'm afraid. Sorry.

I really find these sort of comments very unhelpful and a little mean! Its comments like yours that stop the rest of us vain and paranoid subscribers from posting our own pictures. I love seeing other peoples creations but would never dream of posting an critical comment, especially when we are also talking about substantial amounts of money!
MC5581 is obviously very pleased with his 2 suits and your harsh comments may undermine his feelings for them. I know you probably think you are being helpful and/or cleaver but...! I really do think you should keep your highly critical comments to yourself! For my own opinion I think they look fine.

[aston]

I have to agree with jrtjon. Surely you can only observe in a way that is relevant to your own preferances? If somebody takes the time and trouble to post and ask for some feedback, then arrogantly rubbishing what is on show is just not on.

Another man's wife may be, in my view, rather ugly, but I am unlikely to tell him so, even if he asked.

[Richard3]

Both suits look good, although I prefer the more conservative cut of the first one.

[Costi]

Dear mc,

Thanks for taking the time to post. And congratulations on embarking on this journey
A good relationship with your tailor, as you describe, is an excellent basis for experimenting. Your tastes and requirements will evolve with time and you'll find a lot of good inspiration here for development, I hope. It's important that you have the spirit and the enthusiasm.
I don't wear much some of my early suits anymore, even though I can (again, now!) fit in them, because they no longer correspond to how I feel about dress today. However, looking back, each step was important and mirrored my views (or visions) at that time.
Beyond the tone (suggesting a history we are not aware of, so I cannot comment), I find it hard to argue with some of the precise points DFR makes on cut and styling - they do reflect his tastes, but also his experience.
Your first suit looks a bit “top heavy” to me. You have relatively narrow hips and quite extended (I don’t know about “padded”) shoulders. While you may feel this imparts an “athletic” look, I believe you could achieve better balance with a somewhat higher buttoning point, or at least a different roll to your lapels (such as a three button roll to 2.5). A bit too much shirt showing, which is also due to the fact that both coats are cut somewhat on the “strait” side – see if the tailor can make future coats more “crooked”, hugging the neck closer and covering more of your chest. It’s hard to judge without a full picture (from top to toe), but perhaps the coat could be a little bit longer, too. I agree that the cutaway quarters are somewhat dramatic, but I think it’s more a matter of proportion, because they have little length to open gradually, naturally; if you moved the buttoning point higher up, where I think it belongs, this issue would sort itself out.
Oh, and do put on a nice tie with a striped suit
Browse the “Great Photos” section a bit, I’m sure you’ll find something you like and which can be a starting point to discuss the next suit with your tailor.

[Rowly]

Hi Matt, Congratulations on your first steps into bespoke tailoring. I have a lot of time for helpful, constructive criticism but not pompous sneering bad manners. Personally, I don't like a low button point, especially with a lot of waist suppression for a tailored fit. You might consider having it tailored but not to the point where it pulls when buttoned or loses its fluidity. I think the gorge is too wide and the button stance too low. The darker one seems to be unbalanced and the shoulders drooping. I would suggest that the coat is far too short. Changing some of these features would make a big difference. There is a tendency to want a very tailored cut, but you will find more elegance in not tailoring it past the point where it loses its flow and elegance. I had to learn this myself and, like Costi, I have really enjoyed the learning curve and continue on my journey with the help of some of these generous mentors who will let you benefit from their experiences, good and bad. Think of your suit as a step in the process and enjoy it for what it is. My most valuable advice is to embrace the concept that Less is More. A little understatement can go a long way.... Good luck, and thanks for posting, Rowly.

[NJS]

When you decide to get two more suits 'off the Row', why not cut back to one and go to somewhere like Connock & Lockie? You will pay a little more but get much better results.

These two are not 'top drawer' suits and you have got what you might have expected to be paying for. I agree with the view above: buy fewer and better. The snark from DFR is fairly in character and it has been aimed my way before. I have been snappy with some before now but under provocation and here there was absolutely none. Just brush it off; after all, you don't have to socialize with DFR. I remember when I drafted my first statutory instrument and presented it for inspection. Unread, and infront of me, it went straight in the bin. It had to be spot-on. My draft was bound to be wrong. It was pointless to read it and, instead, I was shown how it should be done.

Costi is right: you have started out on a journey (of informing yourself), which has only a beginning and you have stepped out along the way. I should think that all reasonable men would send you (and all others), felicitations for that.
NJS

[mc5581]

You have in fact posted this elsewhere for some reason but my opinion of it has not improved so here you are:

From what it is possible to tell from two restricted photographs

No 1

Too tight around button point
Shoulders exaggerated - too much padding/roping and so too dominant
Sleeves too short
Lapels slightly too wide.
Quarters excessive


No 2

Whilst peak lapels are OK if you like them, this pattern for the lapel does not look good at all. Slightly redolent of something made by a multiple tailor from 35 years back
Shoulders ditto

I would suggest over much thought and not enough observation of what is about - who allowed these two to leave his work room?

Clearly if you are happy then so be it but not elegant I'm afraid. Sorry.

Thanks to everyone for replying - your responses are much appreciated. I am a huge fan of Ray Dalio-type 'brutal objectivity' and welcome all feedback and am genuinely grateful for each character which you've taken the trouble to type - thank you, all. I would very much welcome discussion on the below.

I think it's helpful to note two things:

1. Difference of opinion is simply wonderful. I recognise that this is not an academic forum; however, I refuse to patronise this forum's members by assuming they are not 'thinking' - perhaps even intellectual - people. It is therefore important to posit that there is no one objectively ideal form - unless you are a true proponent of Modernism. Fashion tends to excite one's emotions and thus opinions are dispensed, often without sufficient critical detachment, but let's look to architecture for a suitable analogy: context is crucial - there is no one 'universally perfect' aesthetic - and few (Prince Charles excepted, perhaps) would argue that case, these days. For a fantastic example of an objective look at something which doesn't adhere to the author's aesthetic preferences see 'Self-Made Motormen: The Material Construction of Working-Class Masculine Identities Through Car Modification' (Bengry-Howell & Griffin: 2007).

2. This forum and its contributors embody the (in my opinion extremely positive) spirit of dilettantism: posters tend to be keen amateur enthusiasts - lawyers, bankers etc. who enjoy bespoke as a hobby - as opposed to professional designers who have spent years critically studying and subsequently producing design. It is surely different to design something which need satisfy only yourself than to design for a critical and objective audience who can choose between your designs and others. Thus opinions, though always welcome, must always be taken with a grain of salt: they have not been tested by the market!

I hope it's clear from what I've written that value-judgments such as "lapels slightly too wide"/"peak lapels are OK if you like them"/"not top drawer" or even "slightly redolent of something made by a multiple tailor from 35 years back" are meaningless without context: what DFR considers 'elegant' is unquestionably informed by his age, location, upbringing etc. and is likely entirely different to someone else. These opinions are interesting inasmuch as they give us insight into a particular worldview. It is intuitively obvious - and has been convincingly demonstrated in numerous studies - that young men use clothes to construct masculine identities in ways completely divorced from their parents. Neither 'norm' would be appropriate for the both groups and consequently there is no 'universally correct' form ... ie no correct lapel width or jacket length, only one which conforms to the standards prevalent in a particular social sphere. What DFR considers too wide may be judged too narrow by his teenage daughter!

So, please continue posting your opinions which are incredibly interesting ... but it would be even better if you provide context (for example as Costi kindly has - I really value looking through past posts and photos of items he has commissioned, which help me appreciate his point of view). DFR, I would really appreciate seeing a photo of you in a jacket you have commissioned as that would really help me to contextualise your aesthetic judgments ... although I feel that is unlikely as, in your first 176 posts, you have exercised the Critic's Right in providing opinions without any evidence of personal competence

If I can engage even one person's interest in a more academic approach (ie not prescriptive) to design I would be delighted. This is how it is approached professionally by people who are employed on the strength of their results rather than the forcefulness of their opinions.

[dopey]

. . .
Thanks to everyone for replying - your responses are much appreciated. I am a huge fan of Ray Dalio-type 'brutal objectivity' and welcome all feedback and am genuinely grateful for each character which you've taken the trouble to type - thank you, all. I would very much welcome discussion on the below.
. . .

Weird. I just watched an interview with him and downloaded his principles. I never expected to see that name here.

[mc5581]

From what I've read and heard, I don't think I'd be his biggest advocate as a person ... largely because it seems he doesn't stick to his own principles!!! (cf. Communism) ... but the idea of brutally honest feedback is one to which I'd wholly subscribe.

EDIT: On which note ... I'd love to hear a) your opinions on the suits above and b) your thoughts on whether there is an objectively 'ideal' aesthetic, which one works towards with experience, or whether that's a problematic/reductive notion.

[Rowly]

It is surely different to design something which need satisfy only yourself than to design for a critical and objective audience who can choose between your designs and others.

Unfortunately, the commercial target audience in most fashion design is neither critical nor objective but stampede like sheep to wear whatever is available in Next, or worn by some spurious celebrity or has a status orientated label on prominent display. The only real designs are on the content of their wallets and on the cheap labour that can be utilized to augment the profit margin.