Kiton CIPA Wedding suit?

[dempsy444]

Hello, I'm relatively new to LL. I am getting married in May and am looking for a black suit for my wedding. I'm considering getting a made to measure Kiton Cipa. I like its peak lapel and how it fits but am a little worried about the Kiton shoulder. The shoulder can look a little casual as it is hand stitched into a smaller scye.

I suppose an alternative is to get a bespoke suit from Saville Row while I a in London. Any suggestions on where to go for a peak lapel?

[rodes]

444, I have too little knowledge of the Kiton shoulder to be helpful on this matter. However, I would consider oxford gray or dark charcoal as opposed to black. There is very little difference. The oxford gray takes summer light better and IMO looks better than black. Moreover, it is much more versatile. You will be able to wear it again for any serious occasion where pure black might look too severe.
Have a blessed wedding. You should need roughly 10000 save the day cards for all of us London Loungers plus our guests.

[dempsy444]

Thanks, Rodes. You may be right and I will look into a charcoal gray suit as well. I've actually commissioned a charcoal gray suit with Huntsman for other purposes. I will be getting my forward fitting in a month. Perhaps I could use this one for my wedding and save myself the expense of another pricey suit. The Huntsman suit is a very classy cloth but maybe on the sporty side for a wedding - Prince of Wales glenn plaid 11 oz charcoal gray.

As for the Kiton CIPA line, it is a very classy peak lapel pattern. Unlike the regular Kiton line, it is less casual, having a roped shoulder as opposed to Kiton's usual "shirt sleeve" shoulder. However, even in the CIPA line, the sleeve is stitched into a smaller arm scye which gives the shoulder sleeve a bit of a puckered look at the seam. I worry that is a little casual for wedding photos.

The other option is to commission another suit from SR. I probably wouldn't go with Huntsman since I have one being made already there. Maybe Kilgour. I'm open to suggestions from anyone on another excellent SR tailor. I feel a little silly paying so much or a made to measure Kiton when I could get a bespoke for the same price, but I have to admit, Kiton suits fit so damn well. As an aside, I'll be very curious to see how Huntsman compares in fit since it is bespoke all the way through.

Thanks, again for the help.

[Concordia]

Kilgour has done some fine work and might appeal to you if you like the slightly aggressive house style. But Huntsman is also a decent place and has the advantage of having worked through your pattern. Mark II will almost certainly be better than the initial run if you take the same care with fittings, etc.

[Costi]

I probably wouldn't go with Huntsman since I have one being made already there.

444, you have the answer right under your nose, as Concordia rightly points out: Huntsman is your best option in this case. You will take advantage of the work they have done / are doing for you, so that is all the more reason to stay with them. What's wrong with Huntsman's peak lapel? You can have it any way you like, if you're particular about your cut (as you should be, too!).
And why go MTM (with the local-neapolitan-idiosyncratic shoulder that you are not very sure about) when you can go bespoke?!

With tailors it pays to stay loyal and persevere, rather than keep moving from one to the next for the mere sake of diversity. If you like diversity (as I do, too) try to obtain it from the same tailor, which is perfectly feasible: different cloths, different cuts, different structures, different shoulder etc. Any good tailor can do what you want, besides his default "house style", if any.

[Concordia]

If you like diversity (as I do, too) try to obtain it from the same tailor, which is perfectly feasible: different cloths, different cuts, different structures, different shoulder etc. Any good tailor can do what you want, besides his default "house style", if any.

Well, that's not completely true, especially for a novice to bespoke. Unless it's your opinion that SR tailors are no good. Kilgour's head cutter made a different jacket for me than he'd made around the corner at Dege, even if they both fit and looked great. While I'm sure he could also supervise a Huntsman suit just fine, I don't think I'd ask him to do that at his current address.

Anyway, Huntsman does make some pretty cool-looking peak lapels, and if OP likes their work for him-- certainly, their shoulder line will be much less slouchy than Kiton-- it's an obvious and lower-risk place to start. Maybe finish, also.

[dempsy444]

Thanks, Costi! You make excellent points. I will look into Huntsman's peak lapel. Of course, I hope at their prices they are extremely close to perfection already on their first suit. I know my expectations are exactly that. If they can't achieve that, I would probably elect to invest my time and money in a more reasonably priced house. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how they do!

Concordia, I feel like trying a few different places as you suggest at this state in my experience with bespoke. I will look into Kilgour. I know my cutter at Huntsman worked at Kilgour for a while. At some point, I suspect Costi is correct about sticking with one.

[Costi]

Of course I don't believe they are no good, but I do believe the advertised differentiation in terms of "house styles" is somewhat artificial. That works to create an idea of "identity" with respect to customers who have a passive attitude to Style and just want to be "served" a ready-made one (doesn't that defeat, to a certain extent, the purpose of going bespoke? - beyond the idea of getting a good fit etc.)
I wonder how I'd feel about ordering a steak in a restaurant and, upon getting an overcooked piece, having the waiter tell me "Oh, but it's the house style!". I do believe a good tailor can make any style and I also believe he WILL make whatever kind of clothes the customer requires - if only the customer knows what he wants. If not, he resorts to his defaults (or the house's) - nothing wrong with that, but these are just two different levels of operating.
Trying different tailors for different styles does little to develop one's own (sense for) style, I think - besides starting over with getting the fit right etc. every time. Unlike eating out, bespoke tailoring is a matter of cooperation, and that means we should take full advantage of our tailors' technical skills (including the ability to variate) and assume the styling ourselves

[davidhuh]

Of course I don't believe they are no good, but I do believe the advertised differentiation in terms of "house styles" is somewhat artificial. That works to create an idea of "identity" with respect to customers who have a passive attitude to Style and just want to be "served" a ready-made one (doesn't that defeat, to a certain extent, the purpose of going bespoke? - beyond the idea of getting a good fit etc.)
I wonder how I'd feel about ordering a steak in a restaurant and, upon getting an overcooked piece, having the waiter tell me "Oh, but it's the house style!". I do believe a good tailor can make any style and I also believe he WILL make whatever kind of clothes the customer requires - if only the customer knows what he wants.

Dear Costi,

regarding your advice on dempsy's wedding suit I agree with you, Huntsman would be the logic thing to do.

However, there is something in this conversation many of us are sometimes struggling with. First of all, I would never order a steak in a fish restaurant, because I run high at risk of a cook not being able to treat meat with love & respect.

With respect to tailoring: how successful is it to convince the cutters at, let me say, Anderson & Sheppard to do a one button Huntsman coat, or going to Huntsman and asking for a spalla camicia? I agree that it takes time and patience to build a relationship with a tailor, but I think there are certain limitations. Will Boehlke recently wrote about it in his blog: http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/201 ... s-mix.html
Another reflection, quoting Will again: http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/201 ... ilors.html

I think Will made excellent points, and there are no easy answers. It may depend on the quantity of bespoke one is commissioning, or on the variety one wants to have in his wardrobe.

But I would be interested hearing from others. It is something I am struggling with.

cheers, david

[dempsy444]

Right now I'm just having fun trying different houses. I suspect that true bespoke does come once one takes command of his style and doesn't rely too much on house style for direction. having said that, i see nothing wrong with using one's knowledge about the different areas of stylistic focus or strength to determine who he commissions a certain style suit with.

[Costi]

Dear David,

There is a title to an Italian movie that I like a lot: "L'amore e' eterno finche dura" - love is eternal while it lasts. I don't know about others, but I tend to fall in love with things that resonate with me; I like diversity so I may choose from a varied pool of options, but once I have chosen I am fully convinced that there is no other choice FOR ME. And I believe it to be eternal... until, of course, I resonate with something else We are still talking about style here...
I have no use of variety or diveristy in my wardrobe for the sake of variety: one-button suits, three-button suits, heavy structures, light structures, spalla camiccia etc. etc. etc. I tried some of them because I was "in love" (or, as I wrote here before, I had fallen "in Style"), I never tried others because they never resonated with me (no guarantee that it will not happen in the future, though!). My wardrobe is not a display of diversity for its own sake, it is not a shop window - it is a gallery of past and present loves, each with its own significance to me, part of my history and part of who I am today. When I put them on, I am transported in a state of mind / heart - they are living memories of who I was and still am, as many beings in one, because growth does not wipe out what one was before, but keeps adding, integrating and structuring the old material. They are a series of complete and total loves, not "trials" or "attempts" made out of curiosity.
Perhaps I am very lucky, but my own tailor has no pretention on a "personal" style of his own. If left to his own devices, he will most often resort NOT to a standard styling, but to what he thinks best suits the particular customer he is working for. Of course all the clothes he makes have an air of "family", but not of identical twins. He made structured and unstructured clothes for me, padded and unpadded, lined and unlined, all sorts of lapels and lines and buttoning points etc. He is not a meat restaurant, not a fish restaurant, not a Chinese restaurant. He never disappointed me! - and that's a very big argument. I never asked (or desired to ask but abstained) for anything beyond his expertise or capacity or stylistic sensibility. Maybe I just go along well with him... Lucky me, I guess

[davidhuh]

Dear David,

There is a title to an Italian movie that I like a lot: "L'amore e' eterno finche dura" - love is eternal while it lasts. I don't know about others, but I tend to fall in love with things that resonate with me; (...) Lucky me, I guess

Dear Costi,

lucky you for sure, but I like your words a lot.

My tailor has a style. My gut feeling tells me I will have to figure out slowly and carefully where we can go and what we can do. In the end, what I am receiving from my tailor is the result of interaction between 2 human beings; one being empowered by his experience and success, the other by more or less strong ideas and the money to pay for it. And perhaps the result and what one can achieve has a lot in common with love: If the chemistry is right and productive, you go far and beyond expectations

I will find out and write about my experience. Deal?

cheers, david

[Costi]

Excellent!

And perhaps the result and what one can achieve has a lot in common with love: If the chemistry is right and productive, you go far and beyond expectations

Memorable words! Bespoke tailoring is PERSONAL, so how can there be no love - call it admiration, respect, affection, esteem, sympathy, affinity - between artisan and customer?
Go with your gut feeling and make the best of it - I am more convinced every day that it doesn't matter what kind of clothes you make, but how you make them. As you say, if the chemistry is right, results are guaranteed. When you are convinced about what you wear, you feel good, you look good and project that.