Eye-catching!

[Houndstooth]

Dear fellow Loungers

I was wondering....what single EXTERNAL aspect of a bespoke suit most sums up or represents for you the notion of bespoke?

Or, to put it another way, as you pass your fellow man 'in the street' what one characteristic of his dress might most surely convey to you whether or not he's wearing bespoke? (The fact that he's just stepped out of a Bentley convertible is of course a great clue....but it's more the suit characteristic(s) that intrigues me!).

I guess options include: silhouette, edge stitching, shoulder line, buttonholes, 'fourth dimension' to the jacket, etc, etc.

Thanks! Houndstooth

[Alias]

How well the waist looks.

That is to say, if it fits around his body like a tent or if it fits properly and looks great while the man's moving.

[Concordia]

Working buttonholes on the sleeve are the usual giveaway.

Of course, there are some who get bespoke suits without, and there are some who get the buttonholes on non-bespoke. The latter are easy to smoke out, as the fit is never quite right, or the fabric is a little generic.

Strictly speaking, of course, while a bespoke garment may be identified by such a small detail, the point of the exercise should be much more encompassing. Just as one should pay more attention to the education one actually receives than the tie it entitles one to wear.

[alden]

Houndstooth

Look at a coat from the back across the shoulders. See then how the coat falls and is shaped in the back. And judge how well the collar is set and remains close to the neck as the wearer moves.

Most tailors don’t pay much attention to the back as clients don’t tend to look there often and are quite content with studying their coats from the front. That’s a big mistake.

By the way, this test will help you not only identify bespoke, but excellent bespoke.

Cheers

[Thomas I. Kim]

..

[alden]

Tom,

Keep drinking bespoke coffee. You make an excellent point in your post.

I think from a technical point of view there are some things we can see that indicate a hand sewn, bespoke garment from an off the rack. But the overall impression should be so subtle as too call little attention to itself. This is where some people can be distracted by bespoke creations that cry out for recognition. They are anything but elegant.

M Alden

[ThomasG]

[quote="alden"]

Look at a coat from the back across the shoulders. See then how the coat falls and is shaped in the back. And judge how well the collar is set and remains close to the neck as the wearer moves. /quote]

I am not a tailor but it seems to me that shoulders/back/collar region is the most problematic for proper suit fit. It is not unusual for me to have two or three fittings just to "iron" out problems in that area. I think this is where a tailor shows his skill.

[Metcalfe]

So perfect, in fact, that all attention was drawn to the suit rather than the person in the suit. I don’t think bespoke at its best does this. Rather, excellent bespoke exudes such subtle elegance, people tend to notice the dresser.

Alan Flusser's entry for Anderson & Sheppard in Style and the Man makes a related point that is worth reading if you have a copy. By extension, better bespoke will not distract the man wearing the suit--and perhaps that's observable. My first bespoke suit distracts me more than my RTW suits because I'm frequently adjusting it. But my more recent bespoke suits allow me to concentrate on business or socializing. Ideally the observer will not attribute a graceful manner to the suit, but the effect would be appreciated during a conversation. Bespoke suits should be the opposite of a BlackBerry.

[Thomas I. Kim]

.

[whittaker]

I don't mean to stray away from the topic of this thread, but I always thought of Style and the Man more of a shopping guide, thus, never thought to pick it up. Is there enough satorial information, not found in Dressing the Man, to make it a worthy purchase?

Tom

Style and the Man is not essential if you own Dressing the Man but it is more than a shopping guide. In some areas the former is more detailed than than the latter, particularly in the sportswear section. The shopping guide is the best part and is well detailed and written. In conclusion, worthy but not essential.

Anthony

[TVD]

For a rapid distinction at more than ten meters distance (to make life more difficult, one should not be able to have a close look at the stitching!), one has to include an element of psychology. The main criteria are:

a) fit / cut

b) fabric

c) workmanship

if it fits well, it is either bespoke or very high end MTM. If the fabric is long lasting (traditional 11 / 13 oz) it is likely to be bespoke, while luxury coatings (leightweight, slight sheen etc.) can be either high end (especially Italian) MTM or traditional bespoke. Here one has to look at the detailing. Basically, if it looks absolutely perfect it is probably MTM.

A very rudimentary categorisation into high end (whether bespoke or MTM) and the rest can be made on the basis of the hand stitched breast pocket, which is a more reliable indicator than the ubiquitous working buttonholes on the sleeves.

For Savile Row style suits another good indicator is also the stitching at the top of the vent(s), pointing at anything between 85 and 55 degrees from the edge of the vent.

However, those used to Savile Row suits should not be mislead by details that are typical of the style rather than bespoke manufacture per se: many continental tailors will avoid cross stitched horn buttons (prefer parallel stitching and polished resin or nut), will stitch the edges more discreetely (near invisibly) than SR, and a lot more discreetely than Naples, or will avoid that stitching on the vents because they consider it ungainly.

If a coat meets the criteria of hand stitched edges, button holes and breast pocket, it can be only bespoke or the very best MTM. The final judgment is down to fit and style.

[dopey]

All meaningful bespoke details can be replicated in super high end RTW and MTM. Nevertheless, I can certainly tell a bespoke suit by examining its construction closely. From a normal conversing distance the best I can really say is that I can identify a well fitting suit made in high quality cloth. Whether the wearer is blessed in perfectly fitting an RTW pattern, has very good MTM or is wearing bespoke is harder to discern, but I am not sure that matters. A suit that is made well and fits its wearer is really the only objective. Whether someone gets that through bespoke, MTM or RTW (in order of decreasing difficulty and likelihood) is besides the point,

[Metcalfe]

I agree completely with Anthony's evaluation of Style and the Man. The chapter on London provides an excellent account of house styles for several Savile Row firms. Style and the Man introduced me to the idea of understatement for which I am forever grateful. It's an ethnography of style that covers the world's great cities.

[Metcalfe]

Metcalfe, can you elaborate why your first bespoke suit required so much attention? Was it the fit, sleeves, collar?

Tom

The main problem is that there's insufficient drape in the back, so I feel constrained when I reach for anything (e.g., during dinner). The armholes are also too large and too low, so the entire jacket moves out of place and I have to tug on its vents to return it to its proper place. But the trousers work beautifully, so I just remove the jacket at my earliest opportunity. The ill-fitting suit makes me appreciate the workmanship of my subsequent suits, which are worth the extra money.