Ideal Cap Toe Seam, How Far From the Toe?

[arkirshner]

There have been quite a few cap toe shoe dedsigns, past and present. Each maker had to decide how far up the vamp from the toe to place the seam, or to put it another way, how far down the vamp from the lacing to place the seam. Different makers have made different decisions, some closer to the toe, some closer to midway between toe and lacing.

On the ideal cap toe shoe, where do you believe the seam should be placed?

[Costi]

In my shoemaker's book, everything in shoemaking is based on the 1/3 - 2/3 ratio. Even the shoemaker's centimeter is 2/3 of the standard centimeter. He places the seam 1/3 of the shoe length from the tip, but I suppose that works for average shoe sizes and for average models (a longer toe box works differently). Too little and it may look too "delicate". Too much and it may look clumsy.

[couch]

I would just add that in my experience, the placement of the cap seam contributes to determining where the shoe's upper will flex in walking. This presumably interacts with height of the toe box and vamp just behind it to affect whether the shoe is comfortable in action or whether the stiffness of the toe cap causes a pressure line or pinching on the top of the foot. A man with a longer than average distance from heel to ball of foot in comparison to his overall shoe size may find that a cap that is positioned at an "ideal" or "normal" proportion down the vamp causes discomfort when the shoe is flexed. In my experience this is less of an issue with a "too-short" toe cap (as in the AE Park Avenue) because the single thickness of vamp leather is more forgiving in its flex point. A long toe cap that is formed by extending the toe box at the tip but which starts at a natural flex point should theoretically have no effect on this aspect of comfort. I'd love to hear some shoemakers weigh in on this aspect of design/fit. Another thing that can be optimized if going bespoke, presumably.

[rodes]

I usually wear the Edward Green in 202 last size 10C. The toecap seam nearest to the laces measures about 2 3/4 inches from the tip of the toe. This seems ideal to my eye.

[bengal-stripe]

As a rule of thumb, the toe cap is 2/3 of the distance between ‘vamp point‘(V) and ‘toe point’ (T).



More than any other feature in shoe design, the vamp point is determined by fashion. Up to the 70s the ideal was a low vamp point combined with a low top line (point ‘I‘ was lowly placed), showing lots of sock ‘cleavage‘. This had the toe cap rather short. Thereafter the shoe rose higher, giving a higher vamp point and a rather long toe cap (although some designers returned just recently to a smaller toe cap).

It’s all a question of proportions. The good designers follow their intuition to get it ‘right’, the bad ones follow a given rule slavishly.

[arkirshner]

Gentlemen:

Thank you for your responses, especially Bengal Stripe for finding, and posting, what appears to be a definitive illustration, (and consistent with Costi's post) . BTW could you refer me to the source of the illustration as it no doubt will answer all my similar inquiries. Couch, your comments are particularly interesting, especially as what you term the "too short" AE Park Ave cap toe, was the inspiration for my inquiry. Rodes, may I ask, How far is it to the vamp point on your EGs?

Regards,

Alan

[bengal-stripe]

BTW could you refer me to the source of the illustration as it no doubt will answer all my similar inquiries.

The illustration was taken from “Pattern Cutting”,

http://www.noblefootwear.com/Books%20Fo ... /book1.htm

published by Noble Footwear (Frank Jones)

[rodes]

Alan, I have several pair of EG on the 202c,size 10 and one on the 82d ,size 9.5d. On the 202c TI=8.19,TV=4.94,TC=3.37. On the 82d TI=7.94,TV=4.62,TC=3.12. This seems right as the 202 fits higher over the instep. Both look very good to my eye but the 82 is perhaps marginally better. The 202 is clearly a better fit and more comfortable. Overall,the difference in apperance is near negligable and I take the 202c.