Works or products?

[ggreen]

Rodes, thank you. I am glad this was interesting to read. As Costi mentioned "The best part of the LL is being on the same road together with others". I am looking forward to this. It wouldn't be any fun if we all were in Buber camp. As far as taste being innate or existential. To my mind, taste, unlike style, is both. One is born with more or less ability to see differences and similarities, see differences of differences - to discern. Then through upbringing one is given examples on which to exercise this ability/faculty. Perhaps, taste is also more analytical in nature than style. Maybe this question deserves a separate thread where discussion can be framed by a good quote from classics. I have no doubt Costi would have one or two up his sleeve

[Costi]

Certainly, I'll be glad to oblige - by special request and appointment:
"Taste [...] enables us to distinguish all that has a flavor from that which is insipid."
By none other than the classic of classics on matters of taste: monsieur Brillat-Savarin

Isn't that delicious? And equally applicable to the senses of the physical or moral being.

Returning to Balzac... He wrote somewhere (he wouldn't remember where himself, were he alive) that taste is a weapon used by the members of a group / class to snub the manners and ways of another. Well, that is a partisan way to put it, but we can forgive that to someone who wrote so much about taste in a more serious manner.

I believe, to paraphrase another of his definitions (that refered to talent) that taste is a cultivated inclination. The "inclination" part refers to an indispendable natural disposition, while "cultivated" means that it will rarely develop naturally.

[Gruto]

I believe, to paraphrase another of his definitions (that refered to talent) that taste is a cultivated inclination. The "inclination" part refers to an indispendable natural disposition, while "cultivated" means that it will rarely develop naturally.

I nice to see that you are moving away from taste as a mysterious internal revelation only because taste is very much a cultivated force too By the way, isn't taste also distinction, or is possible to prefer something like trousers with side adjusters without disliking trousers with belt loops?

[ggreen]

"taste is a cultivated inclination" - this appeals to me greatly. Also serves as a reminder of how tongue-tied I am. I say "born…ability…to discern", he says "inclination", I say "through upbringing… examples", he says "cultivated". I take a paragraph, he does it in two words and more precisely.
Monsieur Brillat-Savarin's point is well taken. I must say, I was in fact thinking about wine while writing that reply. The process by which one develops taste in/for wine is very interesting. Bespoke wines?
Gruto, I also prefer side adjusters, but - and this is a big but - in the winter when bears get skinny and men quite the opposite I definitely appreciate a belt keeping my external and not so mysterious revelation in check

[Costi]

I believe, to paraphrase another of his definitions (that refered to talent) that taste is a cultivated inclination. The "inclination" part refers to an indispendable natural disposition, while "cultivated" means that it will rarely develop naturally.

I nice to see that you are moving away from taste as a mysterious internal revelation only because taste is very much a cultivated force too By the way, isn't taste also distinction, or is possible to prefer something like trousers with side adjusters without disliking trousers with belt loops?

I believe this is a matter of relativity: perhaps it's not so much that I am moving away from taste as a mysterious internal revelation, but instead you are moving away from considering the "cultivated" part as absolute. What can you cultivate on bare rock? I believe the "inclination" part remains fundamental. In spite of the best care, the most vigorous seeds will sprout feeble plants with sterile flowers in a poor soil.
I don't think my preference for beltless trousers (not necessarily with side adjusters) is a matter of taste, I just find them more comfortable and I like the economy of means. Taste tends to be exclusive (THIS and not THAT!), while Style is inclusive: this, that or the other - but how?

[Costi]

"taste is a cultivated inclination" - this appeals to me greatly. Also serves as a reminder of how tongue-tied I am. I say "born…ability…to discern", he says "inclination", I say "through upbringing… examples", he says "cultivated". I take a paragraph, he does it in two words and more precisely.

You just didn't have the time to make it shorter

Monsieur Brillat-Savarin's point is well taken. I must say, I was in fact thinking about wine while writing that reply. The process by which one develops taste in/for wine is very interesting. Bespoke wines?

On the contrary, I propose applying winemaking principles to tailoring and dress: do the best of what nature offers! Just like the grapes tell you how best to make them into wine and the wine tells you how to drink it, just like the grain of the wood tells the carver how to work it, cloth tells you what kind of clothes to make it into and clothes tell you how to wear them. But do we ever listen?

[ggreen]

I would say the land hints at what grapes can be grown there, grapes hint at what can be done with them. A good winemaker listens to his land/grape. A great one also has vision. A great tailor listens to his cloth AND brings something new into the world - he is an artist. Then it takes a good client to see this new for what it is.
While you propose applying wine making principles to tailoring and dress I would propose applying wine drinking principles as well! Have a glass of wine before dressing in the morning and see what that wine tells you to wear

[Costi]

That might work for many to soften the Angst of checking their choices with the rules book. It might help RELEASE, as Charlie Siems wrote in the interview linked before. The only problem is - where can you go in the morning after you've had an early drink? (the answer might be "anywhere, as long as you're well dressed"! )

[Gruto]

the Angst of checking their choices with the rules book.

I'm sorry but I have to follow this one I know Angst is cool concept but I think you misuse it, Costi. You can be afraid of making a specific choice, for instance between side adjusters and belt loops but being Angst of making that choice? No. Angst comes from nowhere like drifting clouds. That is very thing about Angst. You may also say that it is nondirectional:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angst - I would like to recommend Kierkegaard's The Concept of Dread (Begrebet angst, in Danish) or looking at Munch's The Scream:



"I was walking along a path with two friends – the sun was setting – suddenly the sky turned blood red – I paused, feeling exhausted, and leaned on the fence – there was blood and tongues of fire above the blue-black fjord and the city – my friends walked on, and I stood there trembling with anxiety – and I sensed an infinite scream passing through nature."
- Edvard Munch on the Scream

[Costi]

Angst is about not feeling free, about feeling restrained (I like the etymological explanation on Wiki, thanks for the link). A complete (and happy) ignorant of dress rules feels no Angst, he just puts on something to cover his body. The more you learn, the more you start feeling the sartorial Angst: am I following the rules? Does this tie-shirt combination follow the colour wheel theory? Should a business suit have soft shoulders? All these doubting, insecurity, ceaseless questioning creates a state of anxiety that is a wall of fire in the way of bringing forward one's true Style. It often takes a huge effort to overcome this stage and "release" (in the sense used by Siems) this anxiety that detailed knowledge causes, to "recompose" your vision.

[Gruto]

Angst is about not feeling free, about feeling restrained (I like the etymological explanation on Wiki, thanks for the link). A complete (and happy) ignorant of dress rules feels no Angst, he just puts on something to cover his body. The more you learn, the more you start feeling the sartorial Angst: am I following the rules? Does this tie-shirt combination follow the colour wheel theory? Should a business suit have soft shoulders? All these doubting, insecurity, ceaseless questioning creates a state of anxiety that is a wall of fire in the way of bringing forward one's true Style. It often takes a huge effort to overcome this stage and "release" (in the sense used by Siems) this anxiety that detailed knowledge causes, to "recompose" your vision.

Angst is about freedom, not about feeling restrained. You might be afraid of chosing a business suit with soft shoulders but it has absolutely nothing to do with angst. Angst is not logical in that way. I would argue that many men of great style have been fueled by angst. But that is a very long story ...

[ggreen]

That might work for many to soften the Angst of checking their choices with the rules book

Yes, it isn't easy to make sure you are in full compliance with the manual while dressing in the morning. That for sure would cause angst . Nature came up with a very simple solution to this in my case. I am a late sleeper and am always a bit rushed in the morning on week days, having slept to the very last minute. So, I have no choice, but to make my choice naturally.

The only problem is - where can you go in the morning after you've had an early drink? (the answer might be "anywhere, as long as you're well dressed"! )

Excellent!

[Costi]

Angst is about freedom, not about feeling restrained.

I think I see where our misunderstanding lies - you are crediting me with using "Angst" in a philosophical existentialist way, but I have no pretence to that and you must know me better than that! I use it as a non-philosophical notion, in its proper, etymological sense, very well explained in the first paragraph of the article you linked.
As for existentialist Angst being a source of true Style, I doubt it: it may reach the sublime in music, as in Mahler's 6th quoted as an example (but Tchaikovsky's Pathétique also ends in dismay as a a result of a clash with life's obstacles, and he was no existentialist), but there we have a good dose of determinism or even fatalism, too (as in the march theme representing fate), as well as premonition of one's own destiny (the hammer blows), so are we really free to make ANY choice? Can we CHOOSE to have Style? Hmmm... no more than we can choose the colour of our eyes, I think. I would agree that we might find many interesting dressers haunted (rather than fuelled) by Angst, but not men of Style.

[Costi]

Yes, it isn't easy to make sure you are in full compliance with the manual while dressing in the morning. That for sure would cause angst . Nature came up with a very simple solution to this in my case. I am a late sleeper and am always a bit rushed in the morning on week days, having slept to the very last minute. So, I have no choice, but to make my choice naturally.

Happy you!
But some would argue you ARE not a late sleeper, you CHOOSE to sleep late. I wonder how they explain talent. Or genius! Through experience?!