Ralph Lauren Purple Label White tie and Black tie

[John H. Watson, M.D]

Dear fellow members of LL,

I have always been fond of Ralph Lauren's purple label design and I have recently have in my possession a catalogue of the latest collection. Though the designs looks marvelous, it has caused me to probe the "correctness" and "appropriateness" of both the white tie and black tie collection and whether they could be considered as "accepted alternatives".
I know this might just be an academic question but I really appreciate your views.

Many sartorial authors including the author of http://www.blacktieguide.com have precise and strict views on how a evening suit or DJ should be worn. Although some less traditionalist authors accept some changes to the general rule and considered some unconventional formal wear as "accepted alternatives".

Now lets take a look at some of these pictures:

RL1.jpeg

This scarlet evening coat is beautiful, elegant and almost regal. Some author suggest that a scarlet evening coat is appropriate if one is going to a hunter's ball, that is of course, assuming one is entitled to hunting scarlet. It is also suggested that the scarlet evening coat should be worn with evening breeches. Would this form of evening coat be consider appropriate?

RL1 1.jpeg

Many authors agrees that one could wear a DJ with a waistcoat. However, many authors seems to make it a rule that the bow tie should match the waistcoat but any color except black or midnight blue might risk appearing to be wearing a novelty costume. However, I personally like the scarlet waistcoat in this picture and I think it would ruin everything if it is worn with a matching bow tie.

RL2.jpeg

This style has been recently seen in various designers' collection, such as Tom Ford. A tartan trousers was also featured with a midnight blue smoking jacket in the Rake Magazine. This style obviously has its origins in the highland wear. I personally think it looks dashingly smart. However, can this form of evening wear be considered as appropriate or an accepted alternative?

I would be most interested to hear your views.

John.H.Watson, M.D[/color]

[Pagoda]

The Problem with designer clothes is, in my opinion, that they are under constant pressure to "innovate", i.e. produce something different from what they did last season.
Especially for formal evening clothes, that spells disaster.

Unless you crave to be known as an eccentric (or worse), I would advise against the use of novelty evening wear for anything other than a fancy dress party.

[alden]

Nothing more, nothing less....the essence of evening wear is simplicity.

The RL pictures are costume, not dress.

[John H. Watson, M.D]

Dear Michael,

Thank you very much for your view. This has confirmed my suspicions that these "variations" are neither "correct" nor "appropriate". Although I still maintain the view that it looks dashing in a magazine, but for any occasions other than within a window glass, I totally agree the wearer would certainly be subject to public ridicule.

Another example that I have here:

Dinner Jacket.jpg

Wide shawl lapels double breasted DJ and "U shape" SB waistcoat with again, shawl lapels. What more can I say?

Thank you once again and I value your opinions greatly.

John.H.Watson, M.D[/color]

[alden]

I think these two guys have it right:





Skip the wing collar, pleated shirt, chain and waistcoat.

S I M P L E

Cheers

Michael

[ajbjasus]

Scarlet jackets used for hunting are called pinks. I've never seen anything like em at a black tie do in England except on the toastmaster !

http://www.guildoftoastmasters.co.uk/

Now you wouldn't want to be mistaken for one of them, would you

[A.Hacking]

As far as I am aware scarlet coats should only be worn by two groups of people -
Masters of Foxhounds at their own Hunt Balls, and somewhat anachronistically the Captain (and possibly also former Captains) of the Royal Lytham & St.Annes Golf club at formal club dinners.
Of course golf clubs have never been known for quiet style. It would almost be worth coming second in the Masters so that you didn't have to wear one of those shapeless green jackets

[cdo]

John

I'm in agreement with Mr Alden: black tie should be kept simple and elegant for the gentleman. The more 'adventurous' ones in the evening may attract the initial glances from guests but their outfit can quickly become tiresome. The cut and silhouette of a well-fitting dinner coat and trousers will be enough to quietly distinguish you from other guests. I am continually amazed at the men with more than sufficient means hiring poorly fitting suits for these evenings.

One last point, turn-ups aren't the correct for dinner trousers (as seen in the photo of your second post).

- C

[John H. Watson, M.D]

Thank you Gentlemen,

I agree with you all. The only references that I could find in relation to the scarlet evening coat are either Masters of the Foxhound or Toastmasters. I have also noticed the turn-ups on the DJ. It is pity that even great designers like RL would give in to the relentless race of so-called "fashion trends" and produce such a highly commercialised product.

I have noticed from Mr. Alden's post that Prince Michael of Kent and Signiore Agnelli's DJs are both DB shawl lapel. They are both marvelous. However, if I were to choose a SB DJ, I personally loathe the cummerbund, I would have no choice other than requiring the service of a low-buttoned dress waistcoat. Many authorities suggest that peaked lapels work best with the dress waistcoat and whereas a shawl lapel DJ could accommodate either styles of waist decor, it works better with cummerbunds.

So does it mean that a SB shawl lapel DJ should be best not matched by a dress waistcoat? I would be most interested to hear your views.

Watson

[culverwood]

Do not wear a cummerbund if you do not like them. I have never liked them myself and would not wear one. If you keep you coat buttoned when standing as you should they are unnecessary. I would argue they are unnecessary anyway or you would wear one with a suit. Just a personal opinion which I am aware others do not agree with.

[carl browne]

There's a story about the Prince of Wales (later the Duke of Windsor) scandalizing company by wearing grey flannel with brown reverse calf. The fact is that the combination looks wonderful and the implication was that the Prince understood the rules so well, and was in such a position of authority that he could break them if he liked.

I have seen a photo of Ralph Lauren dressed in a black db dinner jacket, white shirt, black bow tie, ripped, faded jeans and either black western boots or monogrammed velvet slippers (I forget which). While this was nothing like correct, he looked great. But like the Prince, Lauren understands the rules perfectly and has a certain level of authority--in this case a multi-billion dollar fashion business. I also suspect that Lauren's outfit is reserved for rare occasions--a New Year's Eve party, perhaps--in Aspen--at home.

I don't think that a correct black tie outfit can be improved upon, and think it would be a good idea to focus on getting all the details of getting THAT right first.

I also think that black tie is where the Savile Row ethic of not standing out too much applies. You're supposed to keep everything simple to draw attention to the woman on your arm. Penguin, NOT peacock.

[John H. Watson, M.D]

I also think that black tie is where the Savile Row ethic of not standing out too much applies. You're supposed to keep everything simple to draw attention to the woman on your arm. Penguin, NOT peacock.

Thank you Carl, I believe you have summarised the point very well. Penguin, Not peacock. Deliberately breaking the '"rules" without the knowledge of what the "rules" are for, is potentially disastrous.

Watson

[Midnight Blue]

Besides the fact that the scarlet tailcoat is only for very specific ceremonial roles as people have mentioned, the caption on that image says "tuxedo coat with tails". Similar terminology is used in a Robb Report review of recent Purple Label formal wear (http://robbreport.com/Fashion/Formal-Ed ... iid=158833) where the "tuxedo jacket with tails" is shown with a white waistcoat that extends almost all the way down to the model's crotch (when it should never extend beyond the coat's front). In addition, Lauren offers tailcoats with notched lapels in his Chaps line and the dinner jacket photo in the original post is just a tarted-up suit jacket with notched lapels and two buttons.

It's so disappointing to see such an icon of classic menswear reduce himself to the level of a discount tuxedo retailer.

I'm also not a huge fan of the ratty jeans & dinner jacket look mentioned earlier.
http://www.posh24.com/photo/285512/fash ... ion_awards

[John H. Watson, M.D]

It's so disappointing to see such an icon of classic menswear reduce himself to the level of a discount tuxedo retailer.

Midnight Blue. I hear you. Ford, Lauren, they both got their inspirations from Savile Row and their classic style and they turn their backs against them as soon as they became successful. What a shame.