Some practical advice required for life in the countryside

[alden]

That is probably the best piece of advice on dressing that I have read.

Thanks UC.

So much of style is intangible and nuance. Those who try and reduce it into formulas or rules, do readers a disservice. We need to invent a new vocabulary of style and tap into the roots of it.

Cheers

Michael

[carl browne]

Two items:

1. My waxed Barbour was utterly miserable to wear, but foolish Yank that I am, I thought that was its charm. My Ventile Barbour is far better, but lacks interest.

2. Forget about the clothes, I want to live like Porteus!

[porteus]

Well, thank you all for your excellent advice. A year later and I have finally commissioned my first bespoke sport coat (in Alsport 2424) with Chris Kerr. I have tried to keep it all fairly simple and casual (and perhaps a little bit louche), partly to fit in with my lifestyle, partly because I am learning. I've opted for SB, two button, patch pockets (hip), welted pocket (breast). Also a single button on the cuff (I might add to this, I'll see how it looks). I would be interested to hear you views on my choices. My first fitting is next weekend.

Regards,
Porteus

[boxcar]

Yes, waxed cotton does cause one's perspiration to cause a steam rain inside the coat. So do rubberized fabric rain coats. One becomes wetter on the inside than on the outside.

This also brings up a point I don't understand about bespoke and better country clothes and field-wear: Not merging the best of modern fabric technology w/ best of the best coat fabrics.

Example: Everyone knows of Gore-Tex. Early 70s invention w/ patent granted in 1980. It is waterproof and breathable. Meaning ... it keeps rain out and yet the humidity of one's own body passes out easily. And the stuff works. A true miracle product of the space age. It revolutionized ski-wear.

Yet, I have never seen a beautiful tweed coat, like the 3/4 jacket linked in previous post, that has a Gore-Tex lining? (Perhaps because I live in hot arid SW USA. And we seldom wear coats or rainwear?)

Perhaps tweed over Gore-Tex, and then the sheer-est of silk linings would work?

This way, one is warm as toast AND dry. Also impervious to the sudden cold winter/spring shower. Dry as a pin inside Gore-Tex.

The Gore-Tex patents have expired and there are now many similar products available at varying price breaks. And varying thicknesses in case there is a noise factor of the thicker Gore-Tex type fabrics?

There must be something wrong with the combo for it not to be done. As tweed & Gore-Tex would seem the perfect combination for cold rainy climate of the British Isles.

[Concordia]

There are some field coats sold that are made of tweed coated with teflon. Not completely waterproof, but more or less indifferent to rain, etc. And very comfortable.

Mine's from Holland and Holland, but there were several others equally nice and with slightly different cuts to be found within a mile radius in the West End.

[Milo]

Michael Alden suggested in an other thread that the cloth club could have teflon-coated tweed made.

Milo

[boxcar]

Hi

Since I brought Gore-Tex up I'll toss in that it is both comfortable, water-proof, and very breathable of bodily humidity.

Imagine a nice tweed sport coat w/ a Gore-Tex lining followed by a silk lining.

Get caught in the rain? Who cares? Wind? Who cares!!!

And you won't rain your own salty oily humidity back on yourself, either.

[alden]

Michael Alden suggested in an other thread that the cloth club could have teflon-coated tweed made.

The next time we have a heavy Estate type of tweed, I will make it with a teflon coating. There is one on the way that should be an interesting surprise.



I am testing heavyweight (1000 gms) loden cloth currently. My tailor took a cup of water and poured it on the cloth, it beaded up and rolled around on the cloth til we shook it off. The cloth has warmth and is naturally waterproof. This is probably the ideal country cloth. I would love to try and make some in patterns because loden is only available in plains.

The idea of lining with goretex is another good one. Time for me to do some investigation on this subject. I think a silk lining would be too hot for someone planning any physical activity wearing the coat, but for a pleasant walk around the moors or olives it should be fine.

Cheers

Michael

[boxcar]

Gore-Tex may be too stiff or too noisy to be a decent liner.

If it is too stiff it might be a 'wag the dog' scenario where it is the dominant fabric and the tweed hangs like an un-made bed on it. Esp the thinner tweeds. But then again, the relative slickness of the Gore-Tex could provide foundation for the tweed to slide down more easily and therefore hang really nice. Second guessing seems to go either way.

Being it is now Winter, Ski stores and broad line Sporting Goods stores should have Gore-Tex parka shells and bib over-alls on the rack. Making it easy to gauge the fabric for liner purposes. And provide further evidence to encourage a pro to test it. Some of the less expensive type fabrics are not fully water proof. They may be lighter and more flexible. And that might be an acceptable trade off should Gore-Tex prove inappropriate as a liner. As breathability is as important as 100% water-proof. IE - a 95% water-proof fabric that is highly breathable make a good choice, if it is quiet and the tweed hangs on it well, etc.

As far as weight of the tweed, my guess would be that since the Gore-Tex has proven itself in ski-wear, it won't take a thick tweed to hold enough warmth for an avg winter day.

Water can leak thru the seams. So the better users of Gore-Tex tape the seams.

I don't guess anyone will know until it is studied further.

[couch]

I have a Barbour tweed version of the classic shooting field coat with sleeve gaiters, waterproof dual-zip bird pocket in the rear, waterproof lining in the skirt, etc. It's advertised as having a "waterproof, breathable" curtain lining throughout with sealed seams. The brand name Gore-Tex is not used, so it may be a similar product from another maker, or Barbour may not want to dilute its own branding. In any case, I've worn it heavily for five years or so (it's perfect for city errands as well as country use) and it has never been stiff or noticeably noisy. The tweed is described as 'washable' so I have not worried about rain, and indeed in all but a heavy storm I think of it as a raincoat. I have not had any problem with lack of breathability, as some have attributed to Gore-Tex. I've no experience with Teflon coated outer cloths (tweeds, etc.) so can't say how they'd compare. I would imagine they would be superior to the technical linings initially as the tweed would not absorb water; the question is whether the Teflon coating would be compromised over the years by abrasion through normal wear. Good loden cloth is naturally water resistant; with the added water-repellency of a Teflon coating I'd expect it to perform extremely well.

[Russell]

This discussion regarding practical garments for country-wear has been interesting & has more than touched on my typical mode of dress for weekends & shoot days at least.

I’ve spent 30+ years trying to keep warm & dry (mostly dry) whilst shooting or otherwise out in the British countryside. Days out consist of anything from spending a day exposed to the elements with very little movement (i.e. typical driven shooting) through to spending a day involved in very strenuous activity (i.e. a typical day beating).

I remember the introduction of Gore-Tex into the UK sporting scene years ago. At the time the first Gore-Tex coats (3/4 length) cost several times more than a Barbour waxed cotton coat. The outer layer was always some sort of awful synthetic material which didn’t feel or look good. The inevitable rips & tears couldn’t be as easily repaired in Gore-Tex coats as they could in waxed cotton ones. Gore-Tex garments also had a reputation for noise – this noise issue however was due to the choice of synthetic outer material & nothing to do with the actual Gore-Tex membrane.

This all ensured a relatively slow initial acceptance of Gore-Tex garments for country/shooting wear (as opposed to hiking/climbing use).

Waxed cotton Barbours held sway for a long time for wet weather duty & they still enjoy considerable if somewhat diminished popularity in the UK. My first few Barbour coats had the green plastic coverings to the press-stud buttons which were a little more ‘gunstock-friendly’ than the bronze coloured metal ones currently used. I’ve worn out – had repaired – worn out again but still use - Barbour’s of all three cloth weights.

Moving up to date – there’s now a vastly improved range of country-wear/shooting garments using Gore-Tex type membranes combined with a wide variety of outer materials (both synthetic & natural).

Far from Gore-Tex posing any problems when used in combination with tweed – there are now quite a number of tweed coats & jackets available with Gore-Tex or similar membranes.

It’s worth bearing in mind that Gore-Tex is a very thin membrane & not a lining as such. The membrane is frequently bonded to a carrier & can form a sort of thin inter-lining between the outer layer & the normal lining; alternatively it can be bonded to the inside of the outer layer (or presumably the hidden side of a normal lining). I use a Musto trapshooting jacket which at first sight is just a single layer, unlined garment but it’s actually a bonded 3-ply construction formed from a synthetic outer shell; a Gore-Tex membrane & a very thin protective liner, all fused together into a thin & very supple 3 ply material – no separate lining (this is construction is common on climbing jackets as well). Whichever method is used, the Gore-Tex membrane plus its carrier (if present) adds virtually no stiffness to the complete garment.

For absolute rain protection the bonded synthetic coats such as my Musto jacket are certainly the best as the 3 ply bonded shell allows proper & full taping of the seams. The compromises to the membrane which seem to be necessary where a more traditional construction is involved eventually allow some ingress of moisture when out for hours on the foulest of days (despite some makers claims).

I find a pair of Cordura/Gore-Tex breeks are just the thing where pushing through wet briars as they don’t rip or let water in but they are noisy due to the Cordura. The matching Cordura/Gore-Tex ¾ length shooting coat (which I don’t own) has the durability, practicality & attractiveness of a set of drain rods.

Thankfully now there’s a good selection of coats, jackets & breeks combining the beauty of tweed with Gore-Tex or similar membranes; I posses a reasonable selection. I also use both Teflon coated tweed & normal tweed garments (both types without any space-age membranes).

I’d offer the following comments:

The breathability of Gore-Tex (or similar) is somewhat overstated. Given enough physical effort I find it traps more than enough moisture especially in the usual cool rather than cold UK climate (this winter excepted) It’s worth noting that many Gore-Tex climbing jackets (as opposed to hiking jackets) have sizable ventilation openings which can be adjusted via waterproof zips. I don’t find waxed cotton to be that much worse than Gore-Tex garments for retention of perspiration when heavy work is involved as both are poor under these circumstances. I suspect that most of the ventilation of either waxed cotton or Gore-Tex coats occurs by air flow via the bottom of the coat rather than through the shell. For light to moderate work Gore-Tex does cope with ventilation demands far better that waxed cotton though. Neither are as good as basic tweed.

Waxed cotton Barbour coats are not totally effective in heavy downpours lasting all day although they are still very good under these circumstances.

Tweed with a Gore-Tex or similar membrane is as supple as any normal tweed of the same density. They are ‘quiet’, look good & offer a high degree of waterproofing – however after a prolonged heavy rain (several hours, not just dashing between shops), they tend to leak at some of the seams, probably due to compromises in the integrity of the membrane due to the otherwise more traditional construction of the coat.

Totally soaked tweed is not the nicest thing to put back on after lunch even if a membrane means it’s relatively dry on the inside. A Teflon coating helps to delay the tweed outer layer getting sodden but the wise monkey has two such coats for really foul days (or a spare Barbour).

Teflon coated tweed (without a membrane) performs surprisingly well even in a constant heavy downpour (as does Loden). Again after a morning of a really foul weather I’d prefer to change coats at lunchtime.

For something like deer stalking in the highlands where a lot of strenuous activity can be expected along with some rain I’d wear Teflon coated tweed (no membrane) but carry a rolled up ‘fly-weight’ Barbour Durham over-jacket (the old unlined style) to slip on if needed.

Where jackets (i.e. sports/shooting jackets) are concerned, Gore-Tex membranes don’t make a lot of sense as nobody would wear a short jacket if it was going to be a really wet day. If caught in an unexpected squall then Teflon coated tweed offers as much practical protection as a jacket with a membrane as most of the rain will be going down ones neck anyway.

So ready to wear tweed/Gore-Tex country & shooting coats certainly are available. They may at first sight appear to offer the best of all worlds & they do indeed offer a lot but I’ve found that I often prefer the extra ventilation (but still good protection) offered by Teflon coated tweed without a membrane, or for the wettest of days - a Barbour coat.

I enjoy using my tweed/Gore-Tex garments in suitable circumstances & where RTW is concerned I’d certainly buy more if required but for something more bespoke I think the problems in getting a Gore-Tex type lining incorporated by a tailor unfamiliar with the requirements of such membranes outweigh any advantages the membrane offers. Better to pick a Teflon coated tweed (or have a length coated) which then allows the full choice of cloth, style & tailor.

There isn’t a genuine all-round country coat no matter how high-tech the fabric or lining. Something like the Alden-BTM ¾ coat is already versatile & weather resistant in a good tweed, even more so if it were Teflon coated but an additional membrane would add little practical protection as if the rain is getting past the Teflon then a different coat is required – if only for appearance sake. The key thing is to dress appropriately to the conditions. This ensures comfort & has the advantage of giving justification for all sorts of garments – particularly in the UK!

I’ve just obtained some 750gm tweed from the Islay Mill for a shooting jacket which I hope will look end up looking very much like the Huntsman shooting jacket depicted on their website. It’s not Teflon coated but it will take light rain in its stride – if I anticipate wetter conditions then I’d take a longer coat anyway or put an alternative in the car.

A Teflon coated LL tweed would be a very practical cloth indeed.

Regards
Russell

[Milo]

A Teflon coated LL tweed would be a very practical cloth indeed.

Regards
Russell

I absolutely agree - and the swatch posted by Alden looks very good to me.

Thank you Russell for sharing your vast experience.

Milo

[alden]

Thank you Russell for sharing your vast experience.

I second the motion. Great post Russell. Very helpful.

Cheers

Michael

[A.Hacking]

Does anyone have experience of skiing in tweed?

[Edward Bainbridge]

Read this only now - this is an astounding bag of first-hand knowledge, thanks a lot.