The Myth of the Soft Shoulder

[storeynicholas]

The coat Mr Alden is wearing in the above picture isn't bespoke - so hardly a helpful example!

So, who put you up to that one then?

[Costi]

Sartorius, I see no FIT issues with the shoulders of that coat - perhaps the sleeve would look a little more clean and a couple of wrinkles in the back would not be there on a bespoke version, but the shoulders would not look much different and - to the praise of the maker - the coat fits remarkably well for a RTW, particularly in the upper back. If the model in the picture favoured this style, he could very well wear that (style of) coat and not the soft examples in which we are used to seeing him. The point was, I suppose, to enable a comparison of styles (not good vs. bad fit) FOR A GIVEN PERSON and an assessment of the difference. I think the style message is clearly different!

[carl browne]

It seems to me that much of this is about problem solving.

Problem: a real human body with all its peculiarities.

Solution: a suit that flatters the wearer.

For example, Cary Grant: Very large head, narrow shoulders, thin frame and limbs, thick neck, long legs.

Solution: A coat with firm, broad shoulders to make the head look smaller. Minimum waist suppression and lots of drape to give more substance to the chest and abdomen. Long, three-button unvented coat to minimize the length of the leg and accentuate the length of the trunk. Full trousers to make the legs look a little thicker, also full sleeves on the coat to do the same for the arms. A very baggy shirt with flowing sleeves and tight cuffs, again to make the trunk and arms look larger, and a low collar that does not draw attention to the thick neck. (Best example is the North By Northwest suit.)

I think a very frank conversation with a tailor is in order; in my own case:

" Well, you're 6'1", have a very small head, long thin neck, broad shoulders, slumped posture, thick chest, narrow waist, short legs, and a very long torso.

Solution:
A coat with very little shoulder, so as not to give the "pin head" look, just enough drape to cover the chest and back with a little comfort. Mild waist suppression, to bring shoulders and waist into balance. Single button coat no longer than absolutely necessary, very open in front to de-emphasize the length of the torso, open quarters and double vents for the same reason. High waisted, narrow trousers to make the legs look longer, and fitted shirts with high, broad collars to make the neck look shorter and broader.

Conclusion:
Discussing the shoulder of a coat isn't as productive as discussing each part in relation to every other part, then giving lots of thought as to how these things apply to YOU.

[storeynicholas]

Carl, see this:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... x=54&ty=47

I have to say this is the first time that I have heard Cary Grant described as having had a small body and limbs!

[J.S. Groot]

His neck is on the long side, though...

[Costi]

Nicholas, I am sorry, but where is the narrow waist?

Carl, I think your concluding paragraph is spot on: good dress is a matter of relations and proportions. And it's not all visual, it's also psychological - how you feel in your clothes, regardless of what you look like.

[carl browne]

Grant was tall, but he was thin. I think my description stands, though I should have used the modifier "comparatively."

[carl browne]

Having trouble with the photo.

[carl browne]

NJS:

My God! It's me! And in a deplorable state of undress! How did you get your hands on that photo?

It is always thus for those of us who achieve fabulous wealth and fame; embarrassing photos of us in our salad days cropping up on the net!

C

[storeynicholas]

Carl - the description that you gave brought to mind a herbivorous dinosaur and a quick search turned the picture up!
NJS

[carl browne]

Well, I'm here to learn.

[MTM]

I'm at my parents' for the holidays and am scanning old family photos to email to relatives. I thought of this thread when I saw this one of my grandfather, taken between 1937 and 1940 (my dad's not sure):




PS, thanks for your kind comments earlier, Costi.

[cdo]

As Uppercase stated before, it's not to everyone's taste but I think that the shoulders con rollino of Gianni Marigliano's coat are simply superb - wonderfully manly and elegant. Thank goodness that we have skilled tailors to give us choices rather than having only one style imposed on us all.

- C

[alden]

The coat Mr Alden is wearing in the above picture isn't bespoke - so hardly a helpful example!

The RTW coat actually was a near perfect fit and it was a pleasure to wear for twenty minutes to film the DWS video sequence. I am quite sure the fortunate owner is enjoying it as much as I did. The picture was posted to demonstrate why a square shoulder does not work well on an already square frame. The fact of it being RTW, MTM, or bespoke is irrelevant.

If I went to Huntsman (a foundational LL CAP member) for a bespoke version I am sure that Peter Smith’s team of tailors would take my exaggeratedly square shoulders into consideration and would suggest a very natural approach (without me having to ask.) Contrast is used to attenuate any salient characteristic so in my case a round shape dampens the square shape. A man with very round, sloped shoulders on the other hand might do well with a bit of squaring off.

I might suggest to the tailors to raise the collar stand on my coat a bit as well, to give an illusion of slope. I don’t like my shoulders to look as flat as runway #1 at Heathrow. So some sartorial conjuring is required.

Cheers

Michael

[alden]

Thank goodness that we have skilled tailors to give us choices rather than having only one style imposed on us all.

That is something I can agree with completely. Men who want softer clothes are not a fortunate lot, we have no choice except to have them custom made and the number of tailors who know how to make them well is dwindling all too fast. On the other hand a man who can wear a flat, square cut and likes a bit of rope in the shoulder has literally unlimited choices.

Cheers

Michael