The Illustration of the week #8: A shirt's collar

[alden]

I have often written that one of the secrets to elegant dress can be found in the quality of the shirt and necktie combination. If we drill down one level in the shirt and tie image we will find the beating heart of this elegance engine in the shirt collar and knot of the tie.

Geographically speaking, the shirt collar lies at the very center of our image in the sense that it is the article of clothing closest to our faces. So the cut and fabrication of a shirt’s collar is crucial to rendering an elegant frame for our face and eyes. You may not have Grant’s face but you more than likely have eyes. Jean Gabin often said that the secret of charm and seduction on screen resided in the eyes. They can do wonders elsewhere as well.

Bespoke aficionados, who invest small fortunes in their dress, often forget the most important ingredients. How many photos do we see of tie knots trash compacted for want of tie space or wide, thin, exaggerated open collars that look like they are airworthy?

The collar is a complicated piece of machinery: it can be small or large, short or tall, narrow or wide, and a collar can also be open or closed. That’s a lot going on in a very small space made of very thin cotton.

Four distinct sets of parameters must be considered when drafting a shirt collar with a bit of an eye for what suits a man’s face and build best. One size does not always fit all, and the benefit and challenge of bespoke is to work with a craftsman to get the design that works the best.

As many of you will already know, the concept of harmonious contrast can be used in the design of the shirt collar to help us regulate, diminish or enhance our figures. As a general rule, contrasts tend to tone down while similarity amplifies.

We recently saw an interview with Alan Flusser where he wears a very wide, short and open collar that amplified the writer’s very wide, short, fat, blocky face and neck because of the similarity to his features. He fundamentally would have been much better dressed with a more narrow, high and closed collar.

One man’s taste is another’s poison, so choose your own with care.

Collars that work:







Collars that do not work:








I knew I wanted to make some comment about Welles’s collar but I can’t remember what it was…



Cheers

M Alden

[Jordan Marc]

Michael:

Probably the less said about Orson Welles' collar and tie, the better. But you could say something about dropdead gorgeous Rita Hayworth.

M'thinks this photo of Mr. and Mrs. Welles must have been taken when beautiful Rita cut her hair and dyed it blond (at Orson's request) for her role in The Lady From Shanghai. When Harry Cohn saw her as a platinum blond with a bob, he had a fit and put her on suspension.

JMB

[mmkn2]

A simple principle I have used is that the "V" that is created by a person's mandibles should be supported by the inverted "V" (^) of the shirt's collar.

This simple seem to work when applied to the photos above. For example, Mr. Flusser's collar angle is a little too wide compared to the angle created by his mandibles . . . should be a little steeper.

I know, picky, picky. I once was told to get it as "perfect" as possible, and then throw everything away. Wise advice.

- M

[uppercase]

The topic of shirt collar and tie fit has always been a real bugaboo for me.

In the confluence of that 4 sq. inch space lies all that is pleasurable and confounding about bespoke. Mostly confounding as I can't ever get it really right.

There are 20 different details to attend to which really make or break one's appearance and I don't care how nicely the suit fits, the colors harmonize, how brightly the sun shines on you, if you can't get collar/tie right, well, all is for nought.

You might as well go back home, go to bed and try again tomorrow.

How many times have you seen a tie knot fall from its appointed place? How many times have you been offended by a stiff, cardboard-like collar? How many times have you seen a collar too low or too high, too wide, too narrow, that you had to avert your eyes? You know what I mean, I won't go on.

As I suffer from all of these afflictions, I am always eager to learn from someone who has it right. But rarely come back with useful information, as it seems that masters of the tie/collar universe are averse to sharing their secret knowledge.

I have an acquaintance who gets it right, regularly and with so much elan that I am inclined to punch him in the face everytime I see him, if only to see if his tie knot would then droop or move from its notch. I doubt that it would actually as it seems everything has been perfectly trained. He never touches his tie during the day, never glances in the mirror to adjust it, yet there it sits, in perfect repose, a rebuke to everything I have tried myself.

I have asked him, in a fit of desperation, how he gets it all so right and I do not.

All he mumbled was that the secret was in the cut, choice of shirting, roll, lining and design of the shirt collar by his shirtmaker; the silk, its texture, lining and width of his tie made by his tiemaker and finally on the knot, and its tension, which he chose to match to his collar and coat. He added with a smirk that this all based on what he had for dinner, and with what wine, and with which mistress, the night before.

But ofcourse!

Now, I have the names and addresses of all of his makers, though I doubt that this will make much difference for me.

[bond_and_beyond]

This is a topic I have been obsessing with lately. I am having shirts made by T&A (waiting for my fourth sample shirt now, quite the process indeed) and one of my great concerns is the tie/collar relationship. I am unable to articulate what I want. There always seem to be space or something between the tie and collar leaving a tiny bit of visible collar band which I detest. I am trying to have this remedied by removing the tie space. The collar is a bit wider than the Regent (which used to be as much cutaway as T&A would do, now they have added a slightly more cutaway collar to their "collar lineup") so I think that minimal/no tie space may be in order. What do you all think?

I know many here love a bit of tie space, but on me that always ends up looking sloppy. Maybe I am not tying my ties right?

Either way the tie/collar problem has been given alot of thought by me recently, probably too much

I have been watching blu ray DVDs of all the (available) James Bond films, focusing particularly on Pierce Brosnan's collars which I find to be quite nice. He wears the stand T&A collar (from what I can tell) in his first three outings, then a more "italian" cutaway with no tie space in "DIe another day" (presumably made by Brioni). Close up studies (I need a hobby I know) has shown me that the T&A collars indeed look abit more sloppy with a bit of collar band visible behind the tie (this is not really visible on the regular DVD). The Brioni no tie space collar of "DIe another day" seems to solve this problem. However I am not sure if no tie space will mean that the tie more easily will slip from the collar?

Another good collar I have been studying is that of Gordon Gekko in "Wall Street" (the original that is, not the crappy sequel). He also has a cutaway collar with no tie space, however he wears "skinnier" eighties ties which creates thinner knots which seems to work good with such collars.

I have been unable to reach a conclusion on what I really want, and now I have started to get nervous about my fourth sample shirt not having any tie space. I hope some input from the eminent LL members could put my mind abit to rest!

Thanks

[alden]

I know many here love a bit of tie space, but on me that always ends up looking sloppy. Maybe I am not tying my ties right?

[bond_and_beyond]

I know many here love a bit of tie space, but on me that always ends up looking sloppy. Maybe I am not tying my ties right?

Not quite sure that puts my mind to rest

[Costi]

Not sure I can put your mind to rest, but here is what I think: in absence of tie space the collar leaves tend to push down all but the tiniest of knots tied on the thinnest of ties (Prince Charles style), so this road will only aggravate your problem. Perhaps your collar band is too tall or cut too deeply into your shirt fronts if you can see it above or below your tie knot.

[bond_and_beyond]

I fear that you are right Costi. I will see when I receive the new sample shirt. How much tie space would one in general recommend for a cutaway? There was only a slight amount there on my previous sample shirt, and if this sample shirt does not work out I am not sure how much tie space I should ask for on the next one.

[alden]

How much tie space would one in general recommend for a cutaway?

It depends on how open your cutaway is. The more open the cutaway, the less tie space you should use. I think that 1-1.5 cms is fine for most open cutaways. And one might go as far as 2-2.5 for more closed ones.

The old Brooks Brothers button down shirts (tie space included as standard equipment) had a scalloped edge on the collar band so it sat lower and would not be seen. You could ask a shirtmaker to make this adjustment for you. I have never found it necessary as the knot of my tie stays in place.

What knot do you use?

Michael

[bond_and_beyond]

What knot do you use?

Michael

I use a standard four-in-hand. My ties are mostly standard T&A so there is some size to the knot.

[Gruto]

My experience is that also the height of the collar band on the front influences how well the tie knot stay in place. Height of knot should match height of collar band (Photo: Kabbaz):