Educate me on ties

[J.S. Groot]

I have been exploring the world of Sam Hober (http://www.samhober.com) with glee. Except for the absence of knitted ties, there's a multitude of patterns and finishings otherwise not readily available. Combined with the option of having the tie made bespoke this all bodes well. Being small of stature, I often find RTW ties too long, and though the double four in hand serves me quite well, I would sometimes prefer a smaller knot.

Anyhow, the variety of construction options available puzzles me. So I would greatly appreciate the help of you chaps.

1) Construction. There's 3 and 4 fold , which can be unlined or lined, Italian 7 fold (lined 6 fold) and real 7 fold. Right?

Okay. Which construction do you prefer and why? What are the perks and problems of the various constructions? Fx, why should one prefer a 7 fold over a lined 6 fold?

2) Lining. Wool is used as standard. In various weights. Cotton can be added for extra volume. Again, what is your preference and why?

A major subject perhaps, I know. I tried looking around for previous post on the subject, but you get quite an amount of hits here when do a search on "tie".

Cheers.

[shredder]

They are more matters of preference rather than advantage / disadvantage. That said, a lined tie usually recovers from wrinkles more easily than an unlined tie, which could be viewed as an advantage by some. I would suggest that you send an email to David and start the dialogue; he is good at explaining the different characteristics of various options and guiding you through the selection process. Keep in mind that different silk will yield different results even if they are made to identical specs. Have fun.

[David Hober]

They are more matters of preference rather than advantage / disadvantage. That said, a lined tie usually recovers from wrinkles more easily than an unlined tie, which could be viewed as an advantage by some. I would suggest that you send an email to David and start the dialogue; he is good at explaining the different characteristics of various options and guiding you through the selection process. Keep in mind that different silk will yield different results even if they are made to identical specs. Have fun.

JS Groot,

Shredder's words are true, well said and a good start.

I have not written enough in the past on why a tie should be ordered in a certain way.

I enjoy establishing a relationship with our clients and general information is always good but listening to a gentleman's preferences and giving personal advice is always works well and is something that I enjoy.

Bespoke knit ties will one day be something that we offer; and bow ties are in the planning.

Please ask any questions that you might have.

[J.S. Groot]

I could just write a PM to you Mr. Hober, but who knows? Someone else might benefit from my questions.

This is my case: My tie collection is small and from a time when I bought ties because they looked good as a tie, without consideration to their use. As such, I mostly have patterned ties and I find myself again and again wishing for more solid ties. So I want some basics to add to my wardrobe. I'm thinking navy, wine and brown. I like texture, so grenadine and knits are favourites, plain twills and satins less so. I also like cashmere/wool ties. The problem with texture is that it enlarges the knot. I'm 5'6" or around there, which means that most RTW ties are too long forcing me to adopt the double four-in-hand knot, which is fine; just not with heavier ties. This is basically why I'm considering you, Mr. Hober.

So, that was the prequel. I've perused your site and found many things to my liking. I'm also confused, however. I think the questions in my first post was a little too broad. I had suspected that the type of construction was mostly down to personal preferences. But it's hard to know what to prefer if you haven't tried it As such, I was more looking for what the traits of the various constructions are. The more folds, the heavier the tie; is that how it goes? Does it influence the "spring" of the tie? And what about the drape? It's those things I'm looking for.

Thanks!

[Jordan Marc]

There is more to a beautifully made tie than meets the eye. Underneath the outer silk shell is a thin envelope or wrapper. In the case of production line ties, it's made of acetate which degrades over time and can discolor the silk. In a genuine handmade tie, the wrapper is made of pure silk. Inside the wrapper is a lightweight layer of loosely woven wool that runs from blade to tail. Its purpose is to allow the tie to spring back into shape after having been worn. Never wear the same tie more than once per week. Roll it gently and let it come back together on its own accord. Behind the wool spring layer is a length of interlining. Sometimes it's made of wool in various thicknesses, other times it's made of canvas. It depends upon the thickness of the outer silk shell; the thinner the silk, the thicker the interlining and vice versa. Some men, such as the Duke of Windsor and Prince Michael of Kent, prefer thick knots. There's no secret to how its done, you simply ask your tiemaker to lay in more interlining where the knot will be. In the case of Prince Michael, he wears a taller shirt collar with a wider spread to balance the big knot.

Clearly the above refers to a three- or four-fold tie, not a seven- or twelve-fold tie. While some men like multi-folds, I find them ungodly hot and uncomfortable.

JMB

[Jordan Marc]

J.S, since you're of medium height and find it difficult to find ties that suit you in terms of length, the solution is to find a good seamstress who can alter ties to your specifications. Any tie can be made shorter or longer, narrower or wider. A properly made tie is composed of three sections, the blade, the neck and the tail. Once you and the seamstress figure out the proper length for you, ask her if she would be willing to make a paper pattern on oaktag and keep it on file. That way, all you have to do
is buy ties. The seamstress will do the rest, and chances are she will use the salvage to make tie keepers.

JMB

[David Hober]

Jordan Marc,

Your points are very good ones but I have a slightly different view - I will explain:

First, all my comments are about luxury ties with a focus on custom made/bespoke ties.

It can be quite difficult to alter the size of a tie once made and it is rare that a seamstress or tailor will be able to do a perfect alteration on a luxury tie. A quick alteration yes but a beautiful one - no.

Some reasons why - silk stretches and different weaves stretch differently when adjusting a tie you need to take this into account.

To sew the tie closed in the back requires talent and experience, if you do not do this everyday most likely your tie will twist and not drape correctly. People often mention a tie being incorrectly cut as the reason for twisting, this is unlikely to be the actual problem as bias cutting is not that difficult, but correctly sewing the back of a tie by hand can be challenging.

To make a tie wider or longer you need more silk using another silk as a "patch" is in theory possible but not a good idea. Note, if you have the original silk on hand there are more possibilities.

We never alter ties but we do on occasion remake a tie to change it. To remake a tie you take it apart and then start over again to make the tie. If you are shortening or making a tie narrower you need to pay close attention to the tie's shape.

A properly made tie is made of whatever number of pieces is correct for the situation. There is no magic to ties made with 3 major pieces (there are typically other smaller pieces for the tipping and keeper as an example). You can have a one piece or 2 piece tie also as an example.

Having a seamstress keep a pattern for you is an interesting idea but again she is unlikely to do a perfect job certainly not as good as an experienced bespoke tie maker. In the situation where you must have a certain design and it is not available as a bespoke tie then your suggestion may be the best that can be done.

I do not suggest rolling ties as there is the possibility of damaging the tip of your tie. Yes, I know that many gentlemen have rolled their ties for years and are very happy by this method - still I would never consider it even for a moment and we make and mail ties daily with very good results in terms of ties arriving safely with no damage.

Interlinings for ties should typically be wool, the weight and thickness for a bespoke tie is based on what a client wants the tie to end up as there are no rules. Cotton is used to add thickness without the weight of wool.

Adding interlining to make a knot bigger is a possibility but this not the way a true luxury bespoke tie maker will usually make a knot bigger.

The best way is to change the shape of the pattern to be wider in the knot area of the tie. This takes more time and skill but in the end it is worth it.

If a client requests more weight in the entire tie then you can add interlining.

As for ties with more than 3 folds being hot and uncomfortable, that is a matter of personal choice and the tie itself. For example I wear lined 6-fold grenadines in Thailand and they are quite comfortable and not hotter than a 3-fold.

[J.S. Groot]

Thank you for informative points.

FYI, I normally buy my RTW ties from Michael Drake.

I find the seamstress idea intriguing, although I was worried about just those things you point you Mr. Hober. Even with these potential pitfalls, it could be interesting to try out, though. However, I don't think it'll be possible for me, as seamstresses are not easy to come by where I live. I might as my tailor or shirtmaker to do it; with a not too valuable tie anyway...

For example I wear lined 6-fold grenadines in Thailand and they are quite comfortable and not hotter than a 3-fold.

See, here it gets interesting for me. On your site, you write that lined 4-fold is your standard construction for grenadine ties. Yet you have chosen a lined 6-fold. Why? What do you get from this construction that makes it preferable to you?

By the way, I'm glad to hear that you will offer knitted ties in the future. Any idea as to when?

Cheers,
j.

[David Hober]

Thank you for informative points.

FYI, I normally buy my RTW ties from Michael Drake.

I find the seamstress idea intriguing, although I was worried about just those things you point you Mr. Hober. Even with these potential pitfalls, it could be interesting to try out, though. However, I don't think it'll be possible for me, as seamstresses are not easy to come by where I live. I might as my tailor or shirtmaker to do it; with a not too valuable tie anyway...

For example I wear lined 6-fold grenadines in Thailand and they are quite comfortable and not hotter than a 3-fold.

See, here it gets interesting for me. On your site, you write that lined 4-fold is your standard construction for grenadine ties. Yet you have chosen a lined 6-fold. Why? What do you get from this construction that makes it preferable to you?

By the way, I'm glad to hear that you will offer knitted ties in the future. Any idea as to when? Cheers, j.

J.S. Groot

A tailor, shirt maker or seamstress are all the same in the context of my example. Can someone with good eye hand skills learn tie making - yes.

The starter set of skills should include: hand sewing, pattern making, knowledge of fabrics and good listening skills.

My apologies for any confusion on our website which is very much a work in progress.

In our guide to ordering a custom made/bespoke tie:
http://www.samhober.com/customties/cust ... eguide.htm

We say:
"A standard lined 3-fold tie works very well in almost all situations."

We also state:
"Lined four-fold ties are a good construction for grenadine ties."

We make more grenadine 3-folds than 4-folds but 4-fold grenadines (and other loose weaves) make a better tie mainly because the sewing on the reverse of the tie is stronger. a small part of me would like to stop offering 3-fold grenadines but we like to offer as many options as possible.

A 6-fold grenadine will have the same construction strength of a 4-fold as well as an enhanced drape. The added complexity of the 6-fold construction is a plus for those gentlemen who love complex creations.

In Thailand I am often in air conditioning so it is not that uncomfortable. If I had a reason to wear ties while walking for hours in the heat and humidity outside it is possible that I might wear a 3-fold linen tie with a very light wool interlining.

The ties that I wear are not really a clear indication of what I prefer for a number of reasons as an example I am the main tester of constructions and fabrics. Also I tend to like many different silks and several constructions.

We will offer bow ties before we offer knits. The reason is that we already make formal cravats and ascots which share some construction techniques with bow ties.

Knits are something very different and we are taking our time in this area. My rough estimate is between 6 months and 2 years for bespoke knits.

[Jordan Marc]

David Hober,

The first holy grail of making a beautiful tie is to always cut on the bias. The second holy grail is to lay out the pattern meticulously. If any of the joins between the blade, neck and tail are off, even if it's by a scant millimeter, take the mismatched pieces apart and resew them with the Singer. The third holy
grail is to balance all the seen and unseen elements of the tie, tippings and keeper included, a tricky balancing act that requires patience and some gnashing of teeth until you get the hang of it. The fourth holy grail is to close the tie with evenly spaced unseen hand-stitching worthy of a surgeon. I thank Jeffery D for the tip to use Gutermann R753 silk twist buttonhole thread for the closing of a tie. Run it through a cake of yellow natural beeswax to strengthen the thread and keep it from unravelling.

David, while our points of view may differ slightly, we're more or less on the same page. Both of us like luxury ties. Would that more men would wear them! As for women, I prefer to see them with artfully knotted printed silk scarves round their necks.

JMB

[David Hober]

Jordan,

"...hand-stitching worthy of a surgeon."

We are indeed on the same page.

The care taken when constructing a tie slowly and carefully is the secret to getting the balance just right.

"...balance all the seen and unseen elements of the tie,"

Exactly!

A couple of random thoughts:

A bespoke tie is going to be a better quality tie 99% of time because of the care that you describe so well. It is a given that all luxury ties ready made or bespoke will have beautiful fabrics.

With the above in mind I would prefer a custom made 3-fold tie over a ready made 6 or 7-fold tie.

We prepare interlinings with a number of steps, the last one of which is to use a rotary blade to slice off very thin pieces of wool to get the interlining to fit perfectly.

All the many small steps that you and I have been speaking of are often unseen and are hard to describe in just a few words. Instead it ends up being an intangible subtle feeling.

Think for a moment of the sound and feeling of a door on a luxury car closing compared to an economy car. I can't clearly describe the difference (maybe someone else can) but it is there.

[Jordan Marc]

J.S. Groot,

Regarding an oaktag pattern for a tie being kept on hand by a seamstress or tailor, one master pattern is not the ideal solution. Printed silks have different scales to their patterns, so one master won't necessarily work for every tie in your collection. Silk is always cut on the bias (read: a 45 degree angle), so is the tipping and everything else hidden inside the tie. Before the silk is actually cut, there's a bit of to and froing to layout the pattern to best advantage, allowances have to be made and marked for seams, folds, tipping, the innards, even the keeper. Each silk print is unique, at least in my experience, so tiemakers end up with a lot of different-sized patterns hung on separate hooks. While some makers buy silks in bulk and crank out ties by the dozens, other artisans take an entirely different approach, buying just enough yardage to make no more than four ties of one particular pattern and keeping a minimum distance of 300 miles between the four buyers. It's a guarantee you will never see anyone else wearing the same tie.

JMB

[J.S. Groot]

Again, thank you both. I'm quite excited now about commissioning a bunch of ties from you Mr. Hober (you'll probably see an e-mail from me sometime in the near future). As it always is with bespoke, I think one needs to feel with one's hands before one can fully understand, so I'll try out some different constructions and attempt to find out, what I like best.

Cheers,
j.

[J.S. Groot]

Something else I've been curious about. I've read many times that the silk for ties is always cut on the bias, as you explain JMB. Why is this?

cheers,
j.

[Jordan Marc]

J.S. Groot:

Silk for ties is cut on the bias to prevent the material from twisting and being pulled out of shape. You might want to Google how silk is made for an in-depth explanation. The Queen of Fiber, which is what silk has been called since its earliest known use for clothing, dates back to 2900 BC when it was woven into fabric for robes worn by Chinese Empresses. How this material made its way from the East to the West is known as The Silk Route, which is also worth a Google.

JMB