Choosing a tailor in London

[bquinn]

Gentlemen,

I am currently in the process of exploring my options, and choosing a tailor in London. I thought I would post here, in the hopes of getting some advice and opinions.

I'm hoping to find a tailor that I can build a long term relationship with. I can expect to be able to commission one to two suits per year from an off-row tailor. I say suits, but the reality is that I work in software, and most of the time, suits are not appropriate apparel for the office. Therefore, my commissions are more likely to lean towards odd jackets and trousers, although I certainly will require a suit or two at some point. I should mention also, that I'm 39 years old, and am portly.

This will not be my first experience with custom clothing. I have twice had shirts made in Hong Kong, as well as two suits, also in Hong Kong. I have also had shirts, trousers, and a disaster of a blazer (the less said about, the better), in India. My experiences with these commissions has been mixed. The first time I had shirts made (through Raja Fashions), the sample shirt was fine, but the other shirts were only ok. The second time I had shirts made (through Jantzen) was significantly better, and I was very pleased with the shirts. I should note though, that I was in Hong Kong at the time, and made my order in the shop itself. When I collected the shirts, I also commissioned 2 suits from Jantzen. I am reasonably pleased with the cut and fit of the suits, but the fabrics I was steered towards (knowing little about fabric at the time), have not worn well. One suit is unwearable now, as the trousers tore, and I'm unlikely to get more than another year or two out of the other. My experience in India was likewise mixed. The blazer was a disaster, 2 pairs of trousers (in Indian linen) are wonderful, the other 2 pairs (in a heavy cotton twill) were merely acceptable. Apparently, even though I had asked that all the trousers be cut the same way (with only a minor change to the fastenings), the shop owner had used a different trousers-maker for the cotton trousers than he had for the linen, and the fabrics had been cut to different patterns. Oh well. They've all been learning experiences, although none of them have been "true bespoke" (with the possible exception of the Jantzen shirts). I now feel that I'm ready to step up to another level.

When I started speaking to tailors, my plan was to commission an odd jacket (or possibly a suit) in linen, to wear next summer. However, the lead time quoted thus far has been significantly less than I was expecting. Therefore I'm currently considering something more appropriate for colder weather.

So far, I have met and spoken to cutters at Sims and Macdonald, Connock and Lockie, and Chris Kerr. I'm planning on speaking to Graham Browne as well.

Sims and Macdonald are the cheapest of the three. When I asked whether they cut a pattern for each customer or used a stock pattern, the answer was "it depends on the customer", which didn't fill me with optimism. The coats that they showed me all looked well made, but there was clearly not much handwork. They also told me that most of their buttonholes were machine-stitched, but that they would do hand buttonholes "if the customer really wanted it". They also seemed uncomfortable with deviating too much from a standard style. They quoted approximately £1000 for a 2 piece suit in a fabric from the Harrisons of Edinburgh linen book, and they said that they typically did 2 fittings.

Connock and Lockie are the most expensive of the three. The elderly cutter that I spoke to explained the entire process to me, starting with sketching out a design, through to the multiple fittings. He made a point of explaining that he was comfortable cutting whatever I wished, and seemed particularly proud of a 3 piece suit in an edwardian style he had recently finished for a customer. The coats that they showed me (in various phases of construction) were beautiful, with extensive hand work. He also talked about action backs, unstructured jackets, and so forth, in addition to more typical cuts. He showed me the complete price list, which ranged from approximately £1400 to approximately £2400, depending on the fabric chosen. When I asked about the number of fittings he said, "well, for a first suit, typically at least 3, sometimes 4, occasionally 2, depending on how right we get it the first time." He also made it clear that no garment left his shop until he believed it to be perfect.

Chris Kerr is priced in between the two, and has a number of high-profile (and well dressed) clients. He made it clear that he was happy to make whatever I wanted, and when I asked about details such as action backs, lapel rolls, unstructured jackets etc., I was told that it wouldn't be a problem. He mentioned that he did a lot of work for film, and so was conversant with a wide range of styles and cuts. The coats that I was shown (in various stages of construction) were all finished to a very high standard, and the construction seemed to be quite good quality. There was quite a bit of hand work, including hand-padded lapels. However, there was less handwork than Connock and Lockie, and in particular, the shoulder seam and sleeve head were both machine done. I was quoted £1300 for a two-piece suit from the same fabric as at Sims and Macdonald, and a similar price for a coat in an 18 oz tweed with trousers in a 14 oz worsted flannel. I was told that there were typically 2 fittings.

I am currently leaning towards Connock and Lockie. I would be keen to hear from any Lounge members with experiences with them, or with Chris Kerr. I am also keen to hear any recommendations for other london tailors in a similar price bracket. I am planning to bespeak the pieces in the 2nd or 3rd week of August, as I'll be in the US next week.

Many thanks, gents!

-Brendan

[Manself]

I have had many things made by Chris Kerr, including my first bespoke suit - and that's still going strong eight years after it was made. The only mistakes occurred when I made poor choices in terms of cloth or style and I have recommended him to a number of friends who have gone on to forge on-going relationships with him. I think that he represents great value for money, and he's a thoroughly nice guy. It's worth noting that he makes quite a structured coat.

[Frog in Suit]

May I recommend my own tailors, Jones Chalk & Dawson (aka Meyer & Mortimer), 6 Sackville Street? They are members of the Savile Row Bespoke Association, with prices under the average SR level. I have been a customer since 2007; I have five suits, plus Navy reefer jacket and grey trousers from them, with two suits and a dark grey overcoat on the way. Why not call them and/or go visit?
Frog in Suit

[carl browne]

I'm partial to Richard Anderson.

The firm construction of the coat, square, unroped shoulders, suppressed waist, and single button closure, displaying a good amount of shirt and tie might be especially flattering, as would the slightly closer-fitting trousers.

Richard is also roughly your age, implying a very good, long run.

C

[bquinn]

Thank you for the responses, such a dizzying array of choices! It's been said before, but this forum really is an amazing resource. Thanks!

I've now spoken with a number of other tailors, including all those mentioned on this thread. I've decided, for now, to try Connock and Lockie, and I have an appointment to be measured next Monday.

I will post here as things proceed.

-Brendan

[bquinn]

I had an appointment on monday to begin my bespoke experience with Connock and Lockie. Mr. Craig was very helpful and friendly throughout the meeting, and took the time to explain some aspects of how some of my choices would (or would not) affect construction of the coat, and the overall look of the finished garment, complete with rough sketches. Throughout, I was amazed at Mr. Craig's level of knowledge about cloth, cut, and technique, and I'm really looking forward to the education I'll receive through working with him (hopefully for many years to come).

For the jacket, I decided on a Hartwist 18 oz grey herringbone cheviot tweed with a blue overcheck. Details to include an action back (bi-swing, half-belt, dual vents), and 3 buttons (planned to roll to 2.5, but the specific roll point will be decided at the skeleton baste fitting). Mr. Craig recommended slanted flap pockets, and a ticket pocket, but this will be confirmed at the skeleton baste fitting, once I can see the overall shape of the jacket. I mentioned that I'd like high armholes, as I do spend a lot of time giving presentations and drawing on whiteboards at work (and hence moving my arms). His response was, "don't worry, they'll be high. If you'd said you didn't want them high, I'd have fought you on it". That put a big smile on my face, you can be sure! I'd also asked that the internal pockets in the jacket be worked on cloth (rather than directly in the lining), for durability. After a moment of confusion he explained that he always works the pockets onto cloth, then fells the lining in around the opening to conceal it, in what sounds similar to the huntsman jacket discussed here: http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/200 ... t-two.html

I suppose this isn't too surprising, as if I understood him correctly, Mr. Craig worked for Huntsman at one point. He only mentioned it in passing though, so I may have misunderstood.

For the trousers, I decided on a mid-grey 13/14 oz woolen flannel, with turn ups, a fishtail back, 2 pleats, and a button fly. Unfortunately I failed to take note of which book the fabric came from, but I intend to write it down at the first fitting.

Total price was just over £2100, which is a bit more than I'd hoped, but I've faith that it will prove to be well worth it.

I'll post pictures of the garments as they evolve.

[J.S. Groot]

It sounds as you've had a great experience there; let's hope the garment turns out satisfactory.

You have to explain to me, though, why you are wearing a half-Norfolk jacket to work?

[bquinn]

You have to explain to me, though, why you are wearing a half-Norfolk jacket to work?

Well, It's not exactly going to be a norfolk jacket, but the intent was to have something less overtly "dressy" than even a typical sport coat. As to the "at work" question, well, I'm a software architect in the internet industry. Wearing a suit, or even a sport jacket on a regular basis to work is likely to be a shock to my colleagues, and have undesirable "he had a job interview today" overtones. In the places that I work, jeans and a t-shirt are what most people wear every day. That said, I am at a level of seniority where I can get away with a bit of deviation from the norm, and I'm trying to generally dress more elegantly in any case. I am, therefore, trying to find a balance between formality and informality. Where and how to strike that balance was something that Mr. Craig and I spent a long time talking about, and I found his advice to be extraordinarily helpful.

I expect that most of the time when I'm at my desk, I'll probably take the jacket off, but will wear it to the occasional meeting or presentation.

I confess also, that I was partly inspired by this photo of Henry Fonda:

[Costi]

Bquinn, congratulations on this start - I am sure you'll enjoy both the process and the results. Since you went for a sports jacket and flannel slacks (nice choice and the cloth descriptions and numbers sound good), it might often be the case that you want to take off the jacket; do you think you could be persuaded to go with a plain waistband instead of the fishtail back? - nice though it feels on suit trousers, as they stay put no matter how you move, it doesn't look as good without a coat on. Also, don't overdo the details - I'd pass the slanted hacking pockets on a gray action back sportscoat and try to make a judgment on the first fitting whether a ticket pocket would add any benefits (aesthetically or functionally) or just crowd the coat front if you are not tall and thin.
Good luck and do keep us posted on the progress!

[andreyb]

As to the "at work" question, well, I'm a software architect in the internet industry. Wearing a suit, or even a sport jacket on a regular basis to work is likely to be a shock to my colleagues, and have undesirable "he had a job interview today" overtones. In the places that I work, jeans and a t-shirt are what most people wear every day. That said, I am at a level of seniority where I can get away with a bit of deviation from the norm, and I'm trying to generally dress more elegantly in any case. I am, therefore, trying to find a balance between formality and informality.

How familiar is this!

I'm in *exactly* same position -- a software architect, with colleagues quite suspicious to "suits" (meaning a coat of any kind).

Here is what I want to try as my future project: http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3333/browncoat.jpg.

do you think you could be persuaded to go with a plain waistband instead of the fishtail back? - nice though it feels on suit trousers, as they stay put no matter how you move, it doesn't look as good without a coat on.

try to make a judgment on the first fitting whether a ticket pocket would add any benefits (aesthetically or functionally) or just crowd the coat front if you are not tall and thin.

Both are excellent advices.

Andrey

[Costi]

I'm glad you agree, Andrey. Bquinn's project sounds so nice and I'm sure he won't regret not having the fishtail back or ticket pocket: after all, he is looking for an elegance quotient upgrade without drawing too much attention from his colleagues. In fact architecture - of any kind - is much about balancing functionality and aesthetics (under its many forms), without sacrificing either for the sake of the other. A well architectured outfit, so to speak, will tell something important about its wearer, who is also its architect in the case of bespoke. Bquinn, you may consider it a personal "oeuvre" of architecture outside your field of expertise. Have some fun translating the principles you like to apply in your own field to clothes and see what truly represents you - we may help with the translation if you let us into the game

Andrey, now where have I seen that gorgeous cloth before? That will teach your colleagues a good lesson about how good one can look in a "suit". You gents might even make a convert or two - nothing is more persuasive (or dissuasive, as the case may be) than the power of personal example.

[J.S. Groot]

I am, therefore, trying to find a balance between formality and informality.

I can relate to that and I think your take on the matter is very interesting. I really look forward to seeing the result.

[Greger]

Tailor says one thing and people here say something else. Plus the tailor has seen you and has anybody here seen you? I'd go with what the tailor says.

The coat is certainly not norfolk, but it is a somewhat fancy sports coat, and rather common in the past. The fancy (for today) is to distract from a suit, therefore, the others who you work with won't bulk at the fact that you are wearing something with lapels. Some others see you do it and will probably follow. Fish Mouth trousers are fine. Some people pick out of history a little time zone, from, maybe one country, from a few clothing hero's at that, and say those are the rules. How many of those hero's followed the rules as the readers think? The fact is how many people have taken off their coats when in the back rooms and their peers saw the suspenders? While some business, such as banks, where customers walk in the front door you would rarely see suspenders, but in the back rooms were these rules always followed? Some rules were for presentation. To take the rules beyond that is a misunderstanding. So many of the rules of the past are misunderstood today, because so many people were born years after the rules have been forgotten, so how would they know in what context the rules were even in? Bankers certainly had the stiffest rules and other business certainly didn't dress to those rules. From one sort of business to another the rules could be considerably different. Bankers today certainly don't dress according to the rules that I saw them dress to when I was child - the rules today are certainly different. Since lapels and braces are coming back into style by the younger generation - enjoy them.

[J.S. Groot]

Greger; I think your comment, in spite of the truth of it, is misplaced here. The advices put forward on the fishtail back/ticket pocket had in my view nothing to do with rules of yesteryear, but rather with aesthetics.

[bquinn]

Thank you all for the responses. This kind of advice is part of what makes this forum so valuable.

Costi, I really like the "architecture" metaphor for my input to the jacket. I'd already been thinking vaguely along those lines, but you have summed up my vague notions with clarity and simplicity. Two words which also happen to be among my most cherished architectural principles.

Regarding the slanted pockets, my instinct is that you gentleman are probably right, and that hacking pockets will be too much. However, I have recently seen some jackets with a much less pronounced slant to the pockets than what I think of as hacking pockets, and this may have been what Mr. Craig meant, as he said "slanted", rather than "hacking". This style of pocket (being more subtle than the standard hacking pocket) might work, depending on how the cloth makes up, and the overall cut of the jacket front (which I left up to Mr. Craig). Luckily I don't need to decide until the first fitting.

On the ticket pocket issue, I agree that it might crowd the jacket front. However, since I take the tube to work every day, I expect that such a pocket would get used daily for my oyster card, so I'm quite torn. Perhaps a hidden ticket pocket, either inside the jacket or inside the normal side pocket would meet the functional requirement? Hm. I need to think about this a bit more.

On the matter of the fishtail back to the trousers, I feel more strongly. There is, to my mind, an inherent elegance to good engineering. This is why I am drawn to well-made mechanical watches in steel, for example, and why I often carry a Zippo lighter. I believe braces are necessary for high-waisted trousers (at least for my physique), and that the classic braces back is a beautifully engineered solution. I understand that it's not typical these days to see men wearing braces without a jacket, but that wasn't always the case, at least in more informal settings. Of course, I may change my mind at the first fitting. We shall see.

Thank you all again for the excellent advice. I hope you gentleman feel that I'm letting you "into the game", in Costi's words. There is a depth of knowledge and taste on this forum which is available nowhere else, and I feel fortunate that you gentleman have shared some of it with me.

BTW, Andrey, that is a beautiful jacket you're planning. I hope we get to see pictures when it's done!

-Brendan