Camps de Luca article in The Rake (Issue 10)

[J.S. Groot]

Used to be good, I'm afraid.

I must admit that it's some time since I last read something from the magazine, so the standard might have declined of course. Could you elaborate on your comment? Is it all flash and no substance now?

[pur_sang]

I agree with crooky. I do believe the author have had more bespoke commissions than most, however, one could still argue that he might not be very knowledgeable (just like a Ferrari owner don't necessarily know as much about the car as a car enthusiast). That's an argument I am not willing to make myself, as I myself am not very knowledgeable. With my perception of him in mind, hence I was very surprised at what he said in this particular article regarding Camps de Luca.

He has a watch enthusiast magazine which apparently is quite well regarded, and hence you can imagine why all the watch advertisements, as he will already have all the relationships in place.

I have wanted to say this for quite a while, but hoping not to offend anybody. There is quite a bit of groupthink in this forum (just like many other forums), and there definitely is a perceived notion of 'elegant style' that cannot be changed. For example, I quite like the Camps de Luca suit shown worn by the young de Luca apart from the length, and yet most of the forum members are saying that it is not good or not to their liking. A lot of members seem to favour a country-inspired off jacket, wider trousers, and yet that don't appeal to me at all. My question is can there be more than one style of elegance? I will like to think the answer is yes.

On a more personal note, I have decided to have an A&S suit commissoned in the very very near future, then I read this Camps de Luca article and it made me think twice. I think I will still go to A&S for my first bespoke suit, as I am green and I have zero knowledge of the bespoke experience. However, I do hope they will make me a suit that is cut to fit me very well, enhances all my attributes and hides all my flaws, rather than just another A&S suit that is cut to be more suited to a certain demographic.

[Manself]

I have to wonder, given what you say about the Lounge's groupthink, and your admiration for the neat suit from the Camps de Luca, how you decided A&S is the tailor for you? I suspect they can make a suit to your specifications - I know a man who had them recreate the silhouette of a Kilgour RTW suit - but it seems faintly peculiar to fly in the face of such a particular house style.

[Gruto]

There is quite a bit of groupthink in this forum (just like many other forums), and there definitely is a perceived notion of 'elegant style' that cannot be changed. For example, I quite like the Camps de Luca suit shown worn by the young de Luca apart from the length, and yet most of the forum members are saying that it is not good or not to their liking. A lot of members seem to favour a country-inspired off jacket, wider trousers, and yet that don't appeal to me at all. My question is can there be more than one style of elegance? I will like to think the answer is yes.

A lean and narrow suit can be a great suit for many men. Others will benefit from a looser style of suit. I don't think that anybody here will claim that everybody should opt for the same cut - as opposed to the Rake article, where the author claims that a Camps de Luca suit is the solution for everybody.

One man's perfect tie is another man's pizza tie (or whatever the phrase is ).

[Costi]

I have wanted to say this for quite a while, but hoping not to offend anybody. There is quite a bit of groupthink in this forum (just like many other forums), and there definitely is a perceived notion of 'elegant style' that cannot be changed.

It's good that you relieved the pressure of these thoughts building up in your mind - here is why I think you cannot offend anyone: it is only natural for people who have similar visions on matters of aesthetics to share them voluntarily; I am sure you are not alone, either, in your appreciation of a vision like the one posted above, yet you probably don’t believe that you are “group thinking” because of this…

For example, I quite like the Camps de Luca suit shown worn by the young de Luca apart from the length, and yet most of the forum members are saying that it is not good or not to their liking. A lot of members seem to favour a country-inspired off jacket, wider trousers, and yet that don't appeal to me at all. My question is can there be more than one style of elegance? I will like to think the answer is yes.

Perhaps you can help me understand your point of view: what exactly is there to like in that picture of young de Luca? That the suit accentuates the disproportion between the length of his torso and the shortness of his legs? Or rather the disproportion between his head and his shoulders and chest? Or the lack of correlation between the buttoning point and the position of the waistband? Judging by how narrow everything looks (trousers, coat) I suppose comfort was not even the least of considerations in designing the clothes. But that's just group thinking...

[pur_sang]

I have to wonder, given what you say about the Lounge's groupthink, and your admiration for the neat suit from the Camps de Luca, how you decided A&S is the tailor for you? I suspect they can make a suit to your specifications - I know a man who had them recreate the silhouette of a Kilgour RTW suit - but it seems faintly peculiar to fly in the face of such a particular house style.

The more I learn and read about the bespoke process (be it suits, shirts or shoes), the more I realise you just got to try it out and see for yourself. In my view, reading about the bespoke process (what I have been doing) is like reading restaurant guides. So with that conclusion in mind, I feel like I have to just jump into this process and see for myself. At the end of it, I might even come out and go back to RTW (that's what the author of the article did). I chose A&S because of its reputation and I am based in London. I also spoke to them on one occassion, it was a very rushed discussion but they seemed to be happy to accomodate.

Given my limitations, I just felt A&S is a good place to start. I might love it I might hate it, I can only know afterwards.

[pur_sang]

A lean and narrow suit can be a great suit for many men. Others will benefit from a looser style of suit. I don't think that anybody here will claim that everybody should opt for the same cut - as opposed to the Rake article, where the author claims that a Camps de Luca suit is the solution for everybody.

One man's perfect tie is another man's pizza tie (or whatever the phrase is ).

Totally agree with you, Gruto. I believe the author wanted to say that Camps de Luca seemed to be more accomodating, and managed to materialize his vision, I guess that's one man's experience. I know I am starting to sound like I am championing Camps de Luca and the author, I can assure you that I am not, but I think my initial questions have lead to some interesting discussions.

[pur_sang]

Perhaps you can help me understand your point of view: what exactly is there to like in that picture of young de Luca? That the suit accentuates the disproportion between the length of his torso and the shortness of his legs? Or rather the disproportion between his head and his shoulders and chest? Or the lack of correlation between the buttoning point and the position of the waistband? Judging by how narrow everything looks (trousers, coat) I suppose comfort was not even the least of considerations in designing the clothes. But that's just group thinking...

Costi, there's a lot of questions here, so I will try to answer them one by one.

To understand my point of view, I think I need to give a little background of me, or my demographic. I think men my age who have come to take some interest in clothing, and then eventually in bespoke tailoring, have probably been 'GQ-ed' to a certain extent. It is probably a bad thing to most of you, and to some extent I think it's a bad thing. A lot of these mainstream magazines have been talking about bespoke (sometimes inaccurately), and a lot of tailors can tell you about their growing clientele, especially some surprisingly young clients. A lot of these younger men are accustom to wearing relatively fitted clothing, just like the Italians, so too tight and narrow to you might be a perfect fit to us. I personally dont like it too tight, but I like a fitted suit, and maybe the Italians will suit my taste more than the English, that I will find out in time.

I did say that the suit jacket look too long, so I agree it does make him look to have shorter legs.

He probably has a big head, I do too, how does a suit change that? I am quite happy with the width of my shoulders and the size of my chest, so I am happy to have a suit cut to the size of my shoulder and chest as oppose to some artificial puffing out, in my eyes, that looks better.

[Yale Cameron]

Pur Sang, a large head looks bigger when the shoulders are dut narrow. Having shoulders that are wider or even a bit extended makes the head look smaller.

[pur_sang]

Perhaps you can help me understand your point of view: what exactly is there to like in that picture of young de Luca? That the suit accentuates the disproportion between the length of his torso and the shortness of his legs? Or rather the disproportion between his head and his shoulders and chest? Or the lack of correlation between the buttoning point and the position of the waistband? Judging by how narrow everything looks (trousers, coat) I suppose comfort was not even the least of considerations in designing the clothes. But that's just group thinking...

continued...

I agree with you about the waistband and buttoning point, and now I get rather annoyed when I see that little 'shirt triangle' when the suit is buttoned. However, men in general have been accustomed to the lower rise trouser, and that is more comfortable for some people. This is one of the main reasons I have fallen in love with a waistcoat. However, I think if men give a higher rise trouser a chance, they will find that it actually looks good and not uncomfortable.

I actually dont find the trousers that narrow, the suit jacket is definitely on the tight side of things. However, the author repeatedly says that it does not take away from its comfort. Another very fickle consideration is the opposite sex, which again the author alludes to. In my demographic, a woman looks at that suit will probably find more attraction than some of the other more highly regarded commissions seen on the internet. Again, this just happens to be the world that I live in. I believe older men have often found enough confidence and comfort in themselves, which often comes with success in life, that they do things to their heart's content. I admire these men immensely. Whereas, some of us may place more importance on our aesthetic perception than comfort. It is the same reason a woman wears a tight fitting little black dress and stilettos as oppose to a sack suit and flat shoes. What I am saying is that I know you are right, but comfort may not be the top priority for everybody.

God forbid, I am a big fan of Tom Ford, and I was even vain enough to lose weight just to wear his clothes. However, every time I wear his suits I get compliments from men and women, I often wonder why, and yet his suits are considered bad news by most here.

[Gruto]

Let's take a look at the same type of suit (also from Camps de Luca according to The Rake), but on a different frame: tiny, longer legs, smaller head:



Voilà, much better, much more harmonious to me.

Again, for comparison:

[J.S. Groot]

However, men in general have been accustomed to the lower rise trouser, and that is more comfortable for some people.

Exactly why this is the case is beyond me (it is true nonetheless). High rise trousers are so infinitely more comfortable. And, I can't think of anyone I know (male or female) who in terms of proportions benefit from low rise trousers. This is an aspect of tailoring that cannot be discussed in my view.

Fitted versus drape-ish can be discussed forever, though, and I don't think we'll ever agree. I agree with you, Pur Sang, that many young men are influenced by fashion, or have been 'GQ-ed' as you put it, and it's easy to understand why they like the fitted cut: If you see it enough in the right places you come to like it - that's how a trend works. I was GQ-ed myself until around three years ago and back then I favoured slim as well: I wore skin tight jeans and my biggest wish was a Tom Ford suit. When I started getting interested in men's clothes, however, I quickly discovered what I had probably known deep down for some time, as my relief of the day was when got home from school and could finally peel of my trousers and wear something I felt good in. I discovered that I was simply not at home in fitted clothes. After this other things changed as well. My interest in brands and runways died as my interest in tailoring and classic style blossomed. And suddenly Tom Ford's designs looked rigid, constricting and almost clownish in it's hardness, where before it was the look of my dreams. Likewise, suddenly the drape-ish cut was much more appealing to my eye, where before I thought it looked ridiculous and sloppy.

I'm not saying everyone goes through such a transformation and eventually end up favouring drape cut, no no. My view is that any cut can look good on a man as long as he looks at home in his clothes. And he only looks at home if the fit it right and the clothes comfortable. Comfort is different to every man. Some feel best when their clothes bare touch their skin, while others are more free with clothes glued to their bodies.

It is as Gruto says, something with ties and pizzas...

[pur_sang]

Totally agree J.S.Groot. I too find myself less interested in designer brands, although every now and then I still see things I like. I like to dress in many different ways, depending on my mood, but I know a great suit is what always looks best on a man.

I, like you, dreamt of a Tom Ford suit. Now I have many, and it's quite interesting, because his suits are actually quite light to wear, and I believe he definitely knows something about proportion, which a discussion between client and cutter may not necessarily yield the same 'striking' results.

Like you said, as time goes by, your preference almost certainly change. I think I have a pretty good idea of what I want now, but who knows, one day, I might just want to wear a sack over my body.

[J.S. Groot]

...and I believe he definitely knows something about proportion, which a discussion between client and cutter may not necessarily yield the same 'striking' results

The keyword here is "striking". Since you've put in in brackets, I'm not entirely sure if you mean striking as in outstanding or striking as in excellent. If the first is the case, well, then that's probably where we differ. I don't particularly like clothes that stand out, since they often overpower the wearer in my view, and in my view Tom Ford makes stand out clothes, which is (in part) why I don't like them. However, this we cannot discuss since it is a matter of personal taste and preference. If the second is the case, though, we could have an interesting discussion: Can a talented couturier/tailor make RTW clothes that look better on a given man than the bespoke clothes the man's personal tailor? This is often discussed and it is of course clear that no generic answer can be given due to the factors involved (who's the couturier? who's the bespoke tailor? for example). So, instead we could ask: Can Tom Ford? I believe, although I do not agree with his aesthetics, he is very talented when it comes to commercials, photo shoots and the like where he has an uncanny ability of creating good looks or, more precisely, striking looks. However, when I see him and the folks he dress on the red carpet and similar venues, I see trousers that are too long, jackets that are too tight (even a fitted jacket should have no wrinkles) and more. This leads me to believe that Tom Ford is a skilled artist, but not a skilled artisan.

...one day, I might just want to wear a sack over my body.

That's the day you die

[pur_sang]

Interesting, because when I wrote that post initially, the word striking was not in it, I put it in when I was proofreading it. To be honest, for no deep meaningful reason, but the reason I put it in inverted commas is because I know not everyone will think a Tom Ford suit is striking. By striking, I simply mean it looks good on a man, but you have to be in shape. Tom Ford is no artisan, he leaves the craftsmanship to Ermenegildo Zegna as we all know. I agree, the celebrities he dresses often look no where near as good as the lookbooks, where the proportions and lengths of coats/trousers are perfect.

I think we've gone way off topic now. Sorry.