I have been suffering a lot trying to match my ties and shirts here in Brazil, where I live. Our culture is not as sofisticated as the english one, and our man, not hallf as elegant!
I do like to wear checked shirts with that have some pattern on them, but everytime I do it, people keep saying it is ridiculous. From my past trips to London, I have seen that elegant matching isn´t always about being conservative, wearing pale blue and white shirts with any tie. I like more sofisticated patterns, but it is difficult, i dont know if you believe, to try to be elegant in a land of grooming ingorant people.
That put down, I would like to know if there are any patterns that dont match each other, or if there are any rules of thumb not to make a mistake when picking shirts and ties. I hope to get some good advice.
Francisco
Matching Ties and Shirts
Try to have at least one same color in your shirt and tie.
Don't wear a small-patterned tie with a small-patterned shirt.
Other than that, I say start simple. You'll get better at matching with time and practice.
Don't wear a small-patterned tie with a small-patterned shirt.
Other than that, I say start simple. You'll get better at matching with time and practice.
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arkirshner
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For a basic discussion on the subject of pattern mixing I refer you to Alan Flusser's Dressing the Man where he covers :
Mixing two patterns of the same design
Mating two checks
Mixing two different patterns
Mixing three patterns
Mixing three patterns when two are the same
Mixing three patterns of the same design, and
Mixing four patterns
Mixing two patterns of the same design
Mating two checks
Mixing two different patterns
Mixing three patterns
Mixing three patterns when two are the same
Mixing three patterns of the same design, and
Mixing four patterns
Pattern mixing is a British thing. It's in their genes. I lived in London for two years and was constantly astounded by the Brits ability to pull it off. I asked a friend , who was a world class mixer, to give me some pointers. He laid six shirts on a table and gave me six ties to match them with. Ten minutes later I was finished. He said,"Good try". They looked passable to me. He then rearranged them in less than a minute and they looked spectacular. But he could not tell me how he did it so well. He mentioned guidelines similar to Flusser's but my attempt followed Flusser's rules and paled in comparison.
That same person,a colleague of mine, later spent a few years here in the U.S. People here commented on his pattern mixing so frequently that he would often "tone it down" for important meetings. A mix that would not even rate a mention in the U.K. would receive thirty comments a day in New York or Chicago. They were mostly positive comment but the constant scrutiny can wear on one. We in the U.S. can be so provincial at times.
That same person,a colleague of mine, later spent a few years here in the U.S. People here commented on his pattern mixing so frequently that he would often "tone it down" for important meetings. A mix that would not even rate a mention in the U.K. would receive thirty comments a day in New York or Chicago. They were mostly positive comment but the constant scrutiny can wear on one. We in the U.S. can be so provincial at times.
Successful pattern matching incorporates everything mentioned above, together with attention to scale. Important to ensure that one pattern is of different size that its mate; in other words, vary the scale of your patterns for maximum effect.
He said,"Good try". They looked passable to me. He then rearranged them in less than a minute and they looked spectacular. But he could not tell me how he did it so well.
The experience you recount above is very instructive. You might want to think of it in terms of some of the essays regarding elegance written on this site. The “innate” ability your friend demonstrated to you is similar to the ability de Balzac explained thusly:
“It is an exquisite sense of tact, whose constant use and practice allows us to see otherwise hidden relationships, predict consequences, imagine the true dimensions and import of objects, words, ideas and beings, for, to summarize, the principle of Elegance is the vision of order, balance and harmony that reveals the intrinsic poetry of all things." Honore de Balzac, A Treatise on the Elegant Life
People blessed with such ability are, almost always, totally incapable of communicating their skill or rendering it into hard and fast rules or principles. It is just something that they can see and others cannot see.
It very much reminds me of the delightful quote from Tony Gaziano in his recent chat when he said, “There are no real rules to last making, which makes it hard to learn.”
Though books like “Dressing the Man” can offer some ideas, the real challenge is to train the eye. It would be a good idea to take a mental photo of the shirt and tie matches your friend made and store them into an elegance reference bank. Over time you will begin to recognize more and more of same, to the point that your vision will become tuned. Your own ability to match will improve as well. It is, in all honesty, the only way to learn how to present oneself with Elegance.
It would be so much more pleasant to be able to say that there is an Elegance pill that could be prescribed, the condensation of one man’s personal opinions that could be imbibed or some other quick fix available. There doesn’t seem to be one though because it just doesn't work like that. Elegance cannot be acheived by the kind of "paint by numbers" logic or methodology. If it were only that easy!
alden wrote:He said,"Good try". They looked passable to me. He then rearranged them in less than a minute and they looked spectacular. But he could not tell me how he did it so well.
The experience you recount above is very instructive. You might want to think of it in terms of some of the essays regarding elegance written on this site. The “innate” ability your friend demonstrated to you is similar to the ability de Balzac explained thusly:
“It is an exquisite sense of tact, whose constant use and practice allows us to see otherwise hidden relationships, predict consequences, imagine the true dimensions and import of objects, words, ideas and beings, for, to summarize, the principle of Elegance is the vision of order, balance and harmony that reveals the intrinsic poetry of all things." Honore de Balzac, A Treatise on the Elegant Life
People blessed with such ability are, almost always, totally incapable of communicating their skill or rendering it into hard and fast rules or principles. It is just something that they can see and others cannot see.
It very much reminds me of the delightful quote from Tony Gaziano in his recent chat when he said, “There are no real rules to last making, which makes it hard to learn.”
Though books like “Dressing the Man” can offer some ideas, the real challenge is to train the eye. It would be a good idea to take a mental photo of the shirt and tie matches your friend made and store them into an elegance reference bank. Over time you will begin to recognize more and more of same, to the point that your vision will become tuned. Your own ability to match will improve as well. It is, in all honesty, the only way to learn how to present oneself with Elegance.
It would be so much more pleasant to be able to say that there is an Elegance pill that could be prescribed, the condensation of one man’s personal opinions that could be imbibed or some other quick fix available. There doesn’t seem to be one though because it just doesn't work like that. Elegance cannot be acheived by the kind of "paint by numbers" logic or methodology. If it were only that easy!
Brilliant reply, Mr Alden. You successfully address an innate understanding of aesthetic balance.
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franciscomello
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[quote="ThomasG"]Pattern mixing is a British thing. It's in their genes. I lived in London for two years and was constantly astounded by the Brits ability to pull it off. I asked a friend , who was a world class mixer, to give me some pointers. He laid six shirts on a table and gave me six ties to match them with. Ten minutes later I was finished. He said,"Good try". They looked passable to me. He then rearranged them in less than a minute and they looked spectacular. But he could not tell me how he did it so well. He mentioned guidelines similar to Flusser's but my attempt followed Flusser's rules and paled in comparison.
That same person,a colleague of mine, later spent a few years here in the U.S. People here commented on his pattern mixing so frequently that he would often "tone it down" for important meetings. A mix that would not even rate a mention in the U.K. would receive thirty comments a day in New York or Chicago. They were mostly positive comment but the constant scrutiny can wear on one. We in the U.S. can be so provincial at times.[/quote]
The provincial way of thinking is, in my opinion, the greatest of my problems. Matching shirts and ties isnt, or I think isnt, my greatest problem...
It is horrible when, as said above, you are constantly commented... And, I think, this doesn´t happen only in england... blessed island...
That same person,a colleague of mine, later spent a few years here in the U.S. People here commented on his pattern mixing so frequently that he would often "tone it down" for important meetings. A mix that would not even rate a mention in the U.K. would receive thirty comments a day in New York or Chicago. They were mostly positive comment but the constant scrutiny can wear on one. We in the U.S. can be so provincial at times.[/quote]
The provincial way of thinking is, in my opinion, the greatest of my problems. Matching shirts and ties isnt, or I think isnt, my greatest problem...
It is horrible when, as said above, you are constantly commented... And, I think, this doesn´t happen only in england... blessed island...
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BirdofSydney
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- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:33 am
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I'm a fan of pattern mixing, although I really could use a few more ties to increase my options (I have about a month's worth in rotation, but, unfortunately some are fairly striking and don't suit many of my shirts).
I find, however, I tend to draw comments when I eschew patterns in favour of a bolder, simpler palette. One day this week, I wore a plain black wool suit, a white shirt and a silver tie and pocket square (which I consider to be an exception to the rule re matching tie and square, as I treat silver and gold as white and yellow respectively - like in heraldry - so that it is, in fact, in the same range as my shirt. That, and it just feels right).
Male colleagues asked me what the big occasion was. People shuffled aside to give me a seat when I came into the courtroom, presuming I was someone of more importance than I actually was. At least one young lady stared, I couldn't help but notice.
I was mystified, having actually dressed in quite a hurry that morning. I can put it down only to the bold visual effect, maybe?
To return to the topic, as regards proper pattern mixing, I would be keen to see a photograph of what (especially Londoner) members consider a real five-star mix. I have seen nice combinations, certainly, but what do we feel really makes the jaw drop?
Finally, this site has some fairly accurate introductory remarks on mixing that Loungers may find useful? And some other amusing, if not necessarily instructive, comments besides.
http://www.bestofbritishshirts.com/off_the_cuff.php
Regards,
Eden
I find, however, I tend to draw comments when I eschew patterns in favour of a bolder, simpler palette. One day this week, I wore a plain black wool suit, a white shirt and a silver tie and pocket square (which I consider to be an exception to the rule re matching tie and square, as I treat silver and gold as white and yellow respectively - like in heraldry - so that it is, in fact, in the same range as my shirt. That, and it just feels right).
Male colleagues asked me what the big occasion was. People shuffled aside to give me a seat when I came into the courtroom, presuming I was someone of more importance than I actually was. At least one young lady stared, I couldn't help but notice.
I was mystified, having actually dressed in quite a hurry that morning. I can put it down only to the bold visual effect, maybe?
To return to the topic, as regards proper pattern mixing, I would be keen to see a photograph of what (especially Londoner) members consider a real five-star mix. I have seen nice combinations, certainly, but what do we feel really makes the jaw drop?
Finally, this site has some fairly accurate introductory remarks on mixing that Loungers may find useful? And some other amusing, if not necessarily instructive, comments besides.
http://www.bestofbritishshirts.com/off_the_cuff.php
Regards,
Eden
Despite being a Londoner I can confirm that the ability to intuitively match ties and shirts is far from innate, at least in the male of the species. Frequently I devise combinations that, at a single glance from my wife, require reconsideration. One contemporary guide in these matters for me is the Prince of Wales, Browsing his gallery of public engagements is often an educative process:BirdofSydney wrote:To return to the topic, as regards proper pattern mixing, I would be keen to see a photograph of what (especially Londoner) members consider a real five-star mix. I have seen nice combinations, certainly, but what do we feel really makes the jaw drop?
http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/gallery ... index.html
That's is indeed an excellent reference, whittaker.
What I see is all DB suits, mostly pale blue, spread collar shirts, alot of rep ties, which appear to "pop".
Always a pouchette and often a boutonniere.
Pity can't see the shoes.
Very elegant, conservative, sublime.
What I see is all DB suits, mostly pale blue, spread collar shirts, alot of rep ties, which appear to "pop".
Always a pouchette and often a boutonniere.
Pity can't see the shoes.
Very elegant, conservative, sublime.
The world over, PC refers to what you are staring into at this moment. In the US it is a brand of Orwellian thought control and in France it is the equally annoying 3% of would be Gulag proprietors who vote partie communiste.
As uppercase has pointed out, the above PC is chic: a model of understatement and good taste in his dress.
There are a few points that might be made regarding his presentation:
How often have we heard that DBs should be avoided by men of average stature? Another bothersome bunch of hearsay evaporates before our eyes with the viewing of Prince Charles DBs.
Like Windsor, he almost always uses besom pockets on his suits to lengthen the line of same. He is not a tall man. You will not see a ticket pocket on his suits for this reason as well. Shorter men should pay particular attention to this detail. The pockets are also cut higher than normal.
His DB coats are cut with perfect balance. They are fastened neither too high or too low. The amount of shirt and tie shown is exemplary.
The buttoning pattern seems to be a 4.5" square that is 4.5" between the two top buttons and 4.5" between the top and bottom row of buttons. This choice elongates the line. It is understated and very elegant. Many Italian tailors will use a more exaggerated crossover and spacing of buttons that produces, well, a more exaggerated look. And more importantly, one that broadens when it should lengthen.
Both buttons on his 6 x 2 DBs are always fastened. It is not an affront to good taste to do so as is often asserted by many in books and on the net. Quite to the contrary, it was common for men to wear their DB coats this way in the 1930s. This is not to say that one must wear a DB fully fastened, but that the option is truly open for anyone who chooses to do so. Fastened DBs are more austere and communicate a sense of “gravitas” and authority to the wearer. Unbuttoned or roll through models are more relaxed. (NB. Let us not forget that Formal DB coats (DJs) are always fastened.)
He invariably wears mid to light blues, blue/grays and grays during the day in tandem with a pale blue shirt.
The contrasts between coat, shirt, necktie and pocket square are always soft contrasts, and never violent ones. This assures the understated tone.
Dark brown shoes are shown here with a light gray suit (above), otherwise they tend to be black oxfords as below.
Also note the lack of turn ups on the trousers designed to lengthen line once again.
Excellent, useful post, Michael.
Also, are PC's coat length on the short side? Not much belly in the lapel. And quite alot of shirt showing. That nut tight tie knot continues to make be gag, imagining how tightly he knotted it and tightly he pulled it to his neck; but then again, his ties never seem to gap down and away from the tie space. Always a four in hand? Some of his shirt cuffs appear to hang low, a bit below the top of his thumb, or is that my imagination? Always shows linen. I haven't observed any photos wearing those loud Jermyn St. multi colored shirts. Most extravagant shirt I've seen is a navy bengal strip on white background.
Regarding button stance on a DB coat.
Are there any golden rules or guidelines?
Does the middle button continue to be placed at the natural waist?
Where should the bottom button be in relation to the pockets?
And how high does one want to the top buttons to be placed?
It appears to me that button placement does vary with the times and fashion, even on a classic suit.
Tailors have placed buttons all over the place on my DB coats.
I have to get out my tape measure to measure what they have wrought!
I doubt that I'll find a 4.5" square.
How should one guide a tailor on this matter of DB button placement?
Also, are PC's coat length on the short side? Not much belly in the lapel. And quite alot of shirt showing. That nut tight tie knot continues to make be gag, imagining how tightly he knotted it and tightly he pulled it to his neck; but then again, his ties never seem to gap down and away from the tie space. Always a four in hand? Some of his shirt cuffs appear to hang low, a bit below the top of his thumb, or is that my imagination? Always shows linen. I haven't observed any photos wearing those loud Jermyn St. multi colored shirts. Most extravagant shirt I've seen is a navy bengal strip on white background.
Regarding button stance on a DB coat.
Are there any golden rules or guidelines?
Does the middle button continue to be placed at the natural waist?
Where should the bottom button be in relation to the pockets?
And how high does one want to the top buttons to be placed?
It appears to me that button placement does vary with the times and fashion, even on a classic suit.
Tailors have placed buttons all over the place on my DB coats.
I have to get out my tape measure to measure what they have wrought!
I doubt that I'll find a 4.5" square.
How should one guide a tailor on this matter of DB button placement?
Hereditary vs. Enviorment is an age old discussion, so in an effort to sidestep it, let's call it osmosis. There are components of a persons knowledge base that were not acquired through a formal or conventional process. Whether gender, race, religion, or socioeconomic influences impacts on this knowledge base and to what degree is one of life's mysteries. As far as HRH, I don't think that his efforts in the area of pattern mixing deserve a special mention although I appreciate his overall sartorial bearing.whittaker wrote:Despite being a Londoner I can confirm that the ability to intuitively match ties and shirts is far from innate, at least in the male of the species. Frequently I devise combinations that, at a single glance from my wife, require reconsideration. One contemporary guide in these matters for me is the Prince of Wales, Browsing his gallery of public engagements is often an educative process:BirdofSydney wrote:To return to the topic, as regards proper pattern mixing, I would be keen to see a photograph of what (especially Londoner) members consider a real five-star mix. I have seen nice combinations, certainly, but what do we feel really makes the jaw drop?
http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/gallery ... index.html
Uppercase,
PC’s coat length seems pretty good. If anything, to my eye, they appear a nanometer long. As he wears a coat with wide shoulders he needs the extra length to avoid having the coat look boxy.
All lapels do have a slight belly, one might prefer more belly but less would make a very arrow straight one.
Yes, there is more shirt showing than in a comparable 1930s style DB. But it looks balanced.
There are some golden guidelines or golden things to consider (if golden rules existed it would make things a lot easier, alas and alack!) Low cut, low hanging, low button point DBs look a bit untidy. Start from the bottom of your ribcage and work downwards approximately 1 cm. Take the shortest possible coat length you are comfortable with. From the point you have marked, one centimeter below the bottom of your ribcage, how many centimeters to the bottom of the coat? As an example, my coat length is 33 inches and the point is 14.5 inches from the bottom of the 33 inch coat. From there subtract 4.5 inches to find the bottom button point and add 4.5 inches for the top one. In the preceding example, the bottom buttons would be at 10 inches and the top at 19 inches.
Now, place the pockets where you like to have them. PC has his pockets well above the line of the bottom row of buttons. Having besom pockets makes this a bit easier aesthetically speaking. The point is to place the pockets where you will. They should be even with or slightly above the line of the bottom buttons. This is a personal preference, but pockets cut too low seem a bit unbalanced. In the above example, the pockets would be at 11 inches.
Give these measures to your tailor and have him prepare a fitting based on them. How does it look? Make adjustments as your eye and his advice merit. This gives you a place to begin that will not lead you too far astray.
There are quite a few posts on DBs in the archives that may interest you. It probably would be a good idea to have a dedicated DB thread.
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