Double breasted suits and formality

[Simon A]

..

[carl browne]

Simon A"

"A man should fear fame like a pig fears succulence"

Truly wonderful. May I repeat it?

It is true, I suppose, that Americans are more likely than others to break traditions and flout conventions. That is a strength. A conviction that all things can and should be improved is a great source of innovation and progress. It is also a weakness; the rule-breakers often discover that many traditions exist for very good reasons, and live to regret their actions, "throwing the baby out with the bath-water" as it were. Etiquette and protocol are not just tiresome arbitrary rules. They evolved over time to make life easier. To ignore them is to create dischord. Rules of dress exist to put everyone in a particular setting on the same footing, easing harsh judgements and smoothing over differences in wealth, status, or education.

[Greger]

Costi, last couple of days I couldn't stay logged in so I'm trying a different computer.

I really don't think that either sb or db is more formal, or should be. Formal should be by style, such as white tie, black tie, business suit, blazers and sports coats, shorts and hawaiian shirts and ski clothes or hiking etc. I believe at pressent there are really just about no rules, so none are written in stone anymore. I believe that is going to change too. The hippie generation who smashed the stone of rules are becoming obsolete as the younger generations begin to take over. To many rules are a problem and not enough rules are a problem and wise people pick somewhere in between to prevent the pendulum from swinging to far either way. We'll see what the younger generation come up with, for rules.

Another part of life is the advancements of technology which includes new cloths and clothes along with computers and internet. Some clothes in the past were rather primitive for their useage, such as mountaineering clothes (suit and tie is not a good idea for some mountain tops). So we need to make room for the new and hope we don't loose all of the past. Natural fibers have some advantages that man made doesn't have, and vicea versa. No doubt the business suit has grandeur that many other garments don't have and I think some of the young are starting to see it. I think tailors, though not many of them, will be around for long time.

[Costi]

Hello again, Greger!

Costi, last couple of days I couldn't stay logged in so I'm trying a different computer.

God works in mysterious ways...

I wish there were something I could do for your sake regarding the established levels of formality (sb, db etc.) but there really isn't. However, as I already wrote, I couldn't agree more with you that the old rules have become history; even though their object - the suit - is still around and going strong. I believe we should be aware what the rules were (are) and why, understand their logic, but we don't need to follow them to the letter today like maniacs. On the contrary, like Couch recently wrote in another thread, we should enjoy the field of possibilities that this relaxation has opened and make the best of our dress.
The problem with rules is that men always want to break free from their tyrany. And they do (did, as far as dress is concerned). But finding a good use for freedom is another thing... Nevertheless, I prefer free men, even if they are waiting their freedom.
I would conclude with a motto based on what Michael Alden has been saying for years now. This is the best use we can make of "rules":

"Taste rules!".

[Greger]

I see you enjoyed a break from me, and your even thanking the good Lord for it. It is good to see you have such faith.

It is nice to see the rules change (don't want to stagnate in them). Watching the arts channel it looked like I saw a striped full dress coat and trousers (maybe it was a self stripe weave instead). If that is what brings the youth to full dress, that is better than no full dress, right?

[Costi]

I see you enjoyed a break from me, and your even thanking the good Lord for it. It is good to see you have such faith.

Oh, I have no fear and no hope. Faith, yes

It is nice to see the rules change (don't want to stagnate in them).

They haven't changed into anything, they have just dissolved into thin air, like Lewis Caroll's Cheshire cat: only a grin remained of them.

Watching the arts channel it looked like I saw a striped full dress coat and trousers (maybe it was a self stripe weave instead). If that is what brings the youth to full dress, that is better than no full dress, right?

Not sure, but once again it proves the logical relation between taste and rules: taste rules, but rules don't taste

[Greger]

...., but once again it proves the logical relation between taste and rules: taste rules, but rules don't taste

Don't remember hearing that one. Sounds good to me. Sounds sorta fishy though; we have to bite it to taste it and then were hook?

[storeynicholas]

When in London, we sometimes went to a famous casino that used to require men to wear a coat and tie (certainly in the evenings). The last time that we went there, a very rich and famous businessman was in there, darting from blackjack table to roulette wheels and back, holding everyone up, without a care in the world. He was in a teeshirt and slacks. A nice old custom was instantly abolished to because his patronage was more important than everyone else's sense of occasion. He probably wore what he wore and behaved as he behaved to demonstrate that he could do as he pleased. I hope that he still goes there. We shan't!
NJS

[Costi]

Indeed, Nicholas, that's exactly the type with an attitude to which I referred in my posts above (and carl browne, too, I think). That's an entirely different category from the unadventurous but decent and sensible businessman. Thankfully, the numbers are small. Regretfully, they are growing.

[storeynicholas]

Costi - yes but the thing is that it takes only relatively few with real financial clout to upset the applecart and once these customs are gone, then they are really gone and some sense of place and occasion with them - I'm not talking about any very strict dress code in this. It could get to the stage where teeshirts are for everything; from bed to board. I also think that there is, sometimes, an affectation by certain businessmen and even intellectuals to seem to despise careful clothing because they believe that it is just vanity and they wish to appear 'bigger' than vain.
NJS

[carl browne]

Wilde tells us that only shallow people don't care about appearance.

[storeynicholas]

Dr Johnson also once got quite involved in the production of (I think) a waistcoat which he admired.
NJS

[Costi]

Nicholas, in reality there is no greater vanity than believing one is better than others. Living such as to demonstrate it is the sure proof that it is false.

[storeynicholas]

Costi - I agree.
NJS

[Costi]

Costi - I agree.
NJS

Thanks. It reminds me of Father Sergiy, one of Tolstoy's short stories: a noble young man who takes to the cloth out of vanity, to prove (to himself and others) he is above the trivial distractions and superficial life of his equals. He learns humility and truly becomes a hermit in the end, even though he returns to live in the world.
If we are vain either way, I prefer our vanities to theirs