Double breasted suits and formality

[alden]

The double breasted suit or coat is considered less formal than the single breasted variety. If you do some searches on the LL you will find quite a few discussions about this.

Cheers

Michael Alden

[Greger]

Going from single breasted to double breast is a sign of moving up in the world . The newbies, since the hippie destruction, are making up their own definitions. Since we live in the new world and not the old, perhaps you should live with the new. I'll stick with the old, since that is where my lessons began. The old - formality is the same for either db or sb, and moving up in the world means wealthier.

[Costi]

Yours may be a personal or local perception, Greger, but Michael's answer relies on accepted rules: the SB suit worn with a waistcoat certainly ranks higher on the scale of formality (as long as we accept there is one) than the DB suit. You will see many pictures of young men from the past wearing DB suits and it was certainly no sign of wealth or social importance (Clemens, I hope this will not diminish your enthusiasm for DB ).

As far as SB and DB blazers are concerned, they cannot be compared from the point of view of formality, as they have different origins and applications, but both are informal.

[Costi]

It will not Costi, I love double breasted suits and I always will, I am not a Dandy! (Who tries to pass himself as someone more important than he is by displaying his "wealth" and "power" / Nouveau Riche)

Of course not, you ARE important, wealthy and powerful / Old Money
Let's leave that as it is for the time being and focus on style and dress:

I can't figure out how many buttons I want though, I want something comfortable but I don't want that casual air that comes with suits that some people wear.

That casual air is probably the wearer's more than the suit's. Getting too serious-looking at 19 will not produce a congruent look, either. You could try a 4x2 in gray flannel, for instance - if the suit is not for business. Or a 6x2 in fresco for the summer. Tour some shops and try on a few DB coats (if you find the variety needed) to get an idea of which button stance you prefer. Ask the tailor's advice, too, when you order the suit.

[Costi]

Unfortunately I have this Aura of coldness around me, everyone seems to think that I am emotionless such as a statue or even arrogant but I guess that's just the way I am. I must be indeed a very boring person for my friends and fellow students!

The good news is that it is all in your power to change that perception (if you wish to) and dress can help you big time.

Costi, unfortunately I am not wealthy and hardly anyone in my family is. I can only afford a bespoke suit because I have been putting money together for the last few years, I believe I have around £4000 now. As for being powerful, well I do know some influential people and many would recognize my family name but not so in England; I think that at 19 I can hardly be called Powerful or Influential, I am neither a Prince nor the son of a Duke though I descend from three Royal Houses and could be considered untitled nobility.

Modesty suits you much better. Work a bit on being more intimately convinced about it and the perception about which you complain above might change miraculously

But anyway; I am not sure to understand what you mean by 4x2 and 6x2.

4x1:


4x2:


6x2:

I'll just say that I like dark colours and adore pinstripes. I will try to go to Savile Row sometime soon. As for looking too serious, well you haven't seen my haircut! The way my face looks, together with my hair and clothing preferences can sometimes make me look like I just stepped out of a time machine!

That may be a problem - elegance is timeless, not anachronistic. Remember that most of us have more time than we'd like to be old... Being young is your privilege - seize it! You know about these things

[Jordan Marc]

Clemens:

I disagree with the notion that a single-breasted suit with a vest is more formal than a double-breasted suit. Time was double-breasted suits were companioned by matching vests and very smart they were, too,
not only because the lapels of the coat were peaked but also because it allowed the wearer to unbutton the coat when seated or to take the coat off altogether and still cover his chest and conceal his braces while at work. Some would say that with the advent of central heating and air-conditioning double-breasted three-piece suits were rather uncomfortable to wear; but, then, that was at a time when fabrics were much heavier than currently made cloth. Others would say there's nothing so elegant as a beautifully tailored double-breasted suit. That isn't to dismiss the elegance of a handsome single-breasted suit with
matching vest; far from it. You should have some of each style in your wardrobe.

JMB

[Costi]

JMB, we may disagree on whether a black or midnight blue dinner suit is nicer, but things are pretty clear as far as formality is concerned. As a matter of TASTE, we may prefer one kind of suit or another but, if anyone cares about formality, we must resort to rules.
I also like and wear DB a lot and the truth is that if you asked people in the street 90% would say DB is more formal and 9% would say there is no difference. Certainly nobody is going to judge you or me for wearing a nice DB suit to a wedding nowadays!

[Greger]

Double breasted was also used for warmth. In the old days people walked or rode horses or on wagons or in carriages and on colder days DB is certianly warmer, so formaility means nothing, unless it is a new rule. I don't think enough time has gone by for the overal conscense to be a rule yet, so it might never become one (I think it shouldn't).

Moving Up In The World I guess should be explained a bit different. Even small boys wore DB. Moving Up In The World is an expression, usually with humor, not snobbery. Often young men out on their own would spend their money on something else instead of extra for DB. Then there are regular people towards the bottom rungs who don't make much so pretty much avoided the extra cost, unlesss they really wanted one or needed one or more. In the old days, not to long ago, money was tighter than it is today and those who had a closet with lots of DB certianly made more than average, from that sence you could almost certainly say that DB is even more formal than SB, because those who earned more went to more formal events.

Times change. Pictures before the hippies showed suit and tie or many sports coats as normal wear, nowadays, in todays pictures you will be lucky to spot even a sports coat. A picture of my grand parents and great grand parents and great aunts and uncles out on a picnic way up in the mountians like Rainer, Hood, Baker, St. Helens, Adams, what are the men wearing? Suit and tie. Fat chance you will ever see suit and tie up in the mountains now. Even sports coats are rare up there. The choices for clothes is better today than the in past. What is missing today is that many of the younger generations don't know about the world of bespoke, and there is not much bespoke left.

[DD MacDonald]

I have to agree with Costi on the received-formality of double breasted versus single. Whatever social mores or graces once held, in my experiences, the double breasted suit is seen as more formal at present. DDM

[Gruto]

Maybe we shouldn't approach DB and SB suits with formal/informal. Both are formal compared to tweed jackets and jumpers, and both are informal compared to tail coats, dinner jackets and morning coats.

It might be more useful to talk about dandified/conventional: Today a SB is the conventional suit; a DB adds a dandified touch.

That said, I think dandified/conventional and formal/informal has a lot do with how you use the garments. You can make a DB and a SB more or less formal or dandified by varying colour, texture, shirt, tie, and shoes.

I made the following scheme a couple of years ago. I wouldn't use the word "eccentric" now, but I still think we will have to work with more than informal/formal to capture the stylistic positions better:



There is more here: http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... nventional

[Concordia]

Another thing to consider: DB typically requires that everything be buttoned over a straight collar and tie. The result-- a unified picture of wool (or linen, etc.) over the wearer's midsection. If it doesn't scale the height of formality, it never dips much below it, either. With SB, one can more easily leave the jacket unbuttoned, wear less formal collars, reveal a belt, etc. More room for a "rumpled" look that suggests informality even if it doesn't always deliver that.

[Costi]

Hello, Greger, how are you doing?
I think you would be surprised how much time actually did pass by since the rules of formality were set in stone: so much, in fact, that they are now mostly forgotten and discussing them today is a bit of a paleontological endeavour. As for the added warmth of DB, I would mention it appeared mostly as an alternative way to cover one's waist (a common element of formal garments) without need for a waistcoat. My summer dinner jacket, for instance, is DB precisely for that reason. Lounge suits are not formal by definition and, among formal garments, the DB versions (dinner jacket / coat, stroller) were always considered LESS formal - it's mostly common knowledge and this piece of information (rather than opinion) may be looked up in any okd book on dress etiquette.
Moving up in the world has little to do with wearing more DB suits (and certainly not to formal events) if not for the fact that a man of more substantial means has more leisure time for non-formal pursuits and needs to dress lesss formally - in DB lounge suits and jackets, for instance. A DB suit takes no more length of cloth or time to make than a SB, so cost is out of question when choosing the cut.
Perhaps the mechanism that explains the nowadays perceived greater formality of DB suits over SB has to do precisely with their informal nature: in an era when men grew eager to abandon suits as soon as they could, older gentlemen continued to wear their DB suits in their free time, which was seen as a "formal" way to dress for leisure. It might also have to do with the industry's predilection for SB suits. Or because one appears more "dressed" in a DB suit: less shirt showing, waist out of sight (compared to SB as mostly worn today, without a waistcoat and with the buttons mostly undone).
I think it would be an improvement for the style quotient of many men if this false perception of the DB coat as formal were disproved.

[carl browne]

In my little beach town in Southern California, all the rules of formality have been upended. The most prosperous and powerful men often wear khakis or jeans or even shorts for business. They show their wealth and power by flouting convention. The well turned out fellow in the suit is more likely to be his banker, attorney, or accountant. And even they are beginning to follow suit. All of the dress codes (written or unwritten) have unraveled. It's reached the point that men don't even KNOW what's appropriate. It horrifies me that grown men show how important they are by dressing like urchins, and it annoys me to sit down in a good restaurant next to men in Hawaiian shirts and shorts. On the other hand, since THERE ARE NO RULES, I get to wear whatever I please. I'm not status obsessed, but I am vain, and refuse to go about looking like an unmade bed. It pleases me to wear suits for work, and odd coats out in the evening, and I suppose I flout convention in my own way: Loafers with suits, brown shoes with gray trousers, colorful, unbusinesslike shirts and ties, even jeans with blazers. I really enjoy the freedom.
C

[Costi]

There is so much bitter truth per square inch in your post, carl browne... that I am afraid to comment.

[Jordan Marc]

Carl:

When bankers, attorneys and accountants turn up for dinner in poolside attire and get the best tables, it is time to give serious consideration to calling the movers and heading out for more civilised environs. The very idea of crappy silk Hawaiian short-sleeved shirts festooned with flowers and wrinkled Burmuda shorts
being suitable attire in restaurants after dark strains credulity. What next, doctors and dentists who specialize in cosmetic procedures turning up in thongs and flip-flops? Head for the hills while the gettin' is good!

JMB