Surgeon's Cuffs

[manton]

We need a tongue in cheek symbol.

When you find it, please PM it to me, and I will edit it into my post as well.

[uppercase]

But what is the "take" on surgeon cuffs?
Are they an interesting detail or a distraction on a bespoke suit?
Are they fashion or do they have a place in today's classic menswear?
And is it worth giving thought to having such cuff treatment on a suit?

[manton]

Upper: what is meant "surgeon cuffs" in this thread is simply functioning sleeve buttonholes (pardon me if you already knew that; from the way your question was phrased, I wasn't sure). I don't know how this term "surgeon cuff" came to be. Some claim that real sleeve buttonholes originated with the medical profession's need to roll up sleeves during operations. Aside from the implausibilty of this theory, I have never run accross any evidence for it.

So far as I know, functioning sleeve buttonholes are as old as the suit, and originate from turn-back cuffs on riding coats.

[tteplitzmd]

I graduated medical school almost 30 years ago, but my recollection is that if you look at some archival photos, or better, well known paintings of pre-sterile or pre-anaesthetic era operating theatres (rooms), the theory might have some validity.

There are/were elaborate hand washing rituals which before gowns, would certainly require the functional cuff.

[JLibourel]

Good points all. Interesting to note that the English fellows value understatement, though it is not surprising, if a person knows something of the culture in that beautiful country. Dan's comment is most appropriate, however, since we live in a world of steadily declining standards combined with freely available information, a kind of odd contradiction in terms. I clapped eyes on Men's Health magazine at the book store yesterday (the cover blared something about Style Icons, which caught my eye). Turns out these folks believe that a guy by the name of Patrick Dempsey is a style icon. I had never heard of the actor before, but then it is likely that my own pop-culture deficiencies are to blame for this blissful ignorance. Dan is right that most of the persons one runs across these days wouldn't know bespoke from well-fitted RTW. So if a fellow wants to mess around with his sleeves buttons, well, that's all right with me. But I do subscribe to the solid theory that one is on occasion judged harshly by one's peers for this sort of mild faux pas. Important to analyze your environment correctly....

If it makes you feel better, Jack, I never heard of Patrick Dempsey either! Jack, yeah. In fact, I named my present Tosa (Japanese Fighting Dog) " Dempsey." Yesterday evening a fellow was admiring my dog and asked his name. I said, "Dempsey, as in Jack Dempsey." He said, "Wasn't he a football player?" Ah, the ephemeral nature of fame!

I too checked out that issue of Men's Health after hearing it praised on Style Forum. It didn't look like anything I wanted to spend my money on.

I can recall asking one of the longtime salesmen at the Polo Shop in South Coast Plaza whether he thought unbuttoning sleeve buttons was the privilege of a bespoke (or high end MTM) wearer or sort of a twit thing. He replied, "Twit." Not long ago, I saw him in the shop with all the buttons of his blazer undone and the cuff rolled up. I couldn't resist twitting him about being a twit. He remarked that it was all right within the confines of the shop (I don't know why). To match him I undid my sleeve buttons and rolled up my cuffs, just joking around. As soon as I left the Polo Shop, I buttoned my sleeve buttons properly and kept them that way!

[BenedictSpinola]

I've seen a number of photos from the 19th century of surgeons and pathologists wearing street clothes under their aprons. They all have their coat sleeves rolled up. Even though Lister came up with a practical means of conducting “antiseptic” procedures in the 1860's, it took a few decades for the idea to catch on and in the interim many surgeons would still operate in their frock coats. I suspect that the prime concern as regards the functional sleeves was in the protection of the garment, and not the patient. Of course this doesn’t answer the question of whether or not the functional cuff was designed specifically for surgeons.

[uppercase]

I was under the impression that surgeons cuffs were actually cuffs on the sleeve.

I recently saw such cuffs on a bespoke suit from a rather conservative SR tailor and I believe that he referred to such cuffs as surgeons cuffs.

They were a very interesting detail and I was wondering if there is some provenance for such treatment or if it is more a whimsical, or fashion detail.

[Guest]

Well, when I see someone dressing a coat with asleeves buttons undone, I suddenly think that is the first or second one bespoke suit he has, or probably it is an MTM. That is the first impression.

Giona Granata.

[manton]

I was under the impression that surgeons cuffs were actually cuffs on the sleeve.

I recently saw such cuffs on a bespoke suit from a rather conservative SR tailor and I believe that he referred to such cuffs as surgeons cuffs.

They were a very interesting detail and I was wondering if there is some provenance for such treatment or if it is more a whimsical, or fashion detail.

The actual cuff on the sleeve is, I believe, derived from turnback cuffs on riding coats. I don't think it was ever widespread on lounge suits, but it used to be one of those details that were not so uncommon, like ticket pockets. Alan Flusser was an advocate of them for many years. He still makes them, but not nearly as much as he did in the 1980s.

[TVD]

The turnback cuffs require exquisite workmanship to avoid looking pretentious. One occasionally sees them in Mayfair, but never in the City. They are something that "cutting edge" RTW designers occasionally play around with to create a "bespoke" look.

The only person I know who has both a fondness for them and can also carry off the look belongs squarely in the category of man who could make jeans and a t-shirt look elegant. Not easily imitated.

[uppercase]

Yes, the turnback cuff is what I understood to be surgeons cuffs.

I can well imagine that such cuffs would not be suitable in a conservative work environment but having said that, the particular example I saw was very well and subtly done; hardly noticeable unless pointed out, the turnback cuff had 4 working button holes, rounded edges, with lining matching the interior coat lining. Quite cool.

[jekarwoski]

Don't functioning buttons on jacket sleeves limit the alterations that can be done in the future? This isn't a problem for the original wearer, of course, but if the garment were to be passed down to future generations it could be an issue. I recall a wonderful post by Michael some months ago describing a son taking his father's suit to the original Savile Row tailor for modifications so that it would now fit the son.

I guess shortening the sleeves wouldn't be a problem, but lengthening could be. For the record, I do specify working button holes, but my arms are so long I cannot imagine anyone having to lengthen them.

We need a tongue in cheek symbol.

A google of "tongue in cheek emoticon" gave a lot of results; the most common for
tongue in cheek seems to be :-J , but I doubt that would generate a graphic. I believe
our bulletin board is derived from phpbb; if so, there are dozens of additional emoticons
available at:

http://www.phpbb.com/phpBB/catdb.php?cat=22

But that of course would require admin assistance. Perhaps the standard "wink"
can substitute.

[alden]

Savile Row tailors will normally have the first two buttons opening and the next two closed to allow for the lengthening of sleeves. It is a very good idea as the clothes hopefully will be passed down and need to be altered.

[TVD]

The possibilities of inheriting clothes are severely limited by recent demographic trends:

a) an increased longevity increases the probability of wear and tear
b) nutritional trends favour a look that is best described as "supersized"

Obviously, the members of the London Lounge may be immune to the effects of (a) and (b) above because they indulge in Havana cigars, fine wine, spirits and copious quantities of unsaturated fatty acids (limiting the effects of medical advance) and bring up their children with excellent taste (which should reduce the temptations of current mass catering).

But more importantly, a bespoke garnment is a joint creation between the tailor and the customer. Passing on bespoke clothes, even when properly altered, is only one step away from RTW. Most laudible when this comes with the added emotional bonds of having belonged to a father or grandfather you loved, but not the same as truly bespoke.

If you wish to make your children share your love for the finest bespoke clothes, your only solution is known as an ALLOWANCE. What could be more pleasant than a father and son discussing their preferred choice of cuff over a pleasant game of snooker.

[JLibourel]

If you wish to make your children share your love for the finest bespoke clothes, your only solution is known as an ALLOWANCE. What could be more pleasant than a father and son discussing their preferred choice of cuff over a pleasant game of snooker.

A great annoyance of watching my stepson grow up has been buying him decent RTW menswear, having him wear the suit or sport coat a time or two and then grow out of it! Had I been buying the little lad bespoke, even a relatively inexpensive option like W.W. Chan, I would be positively apoplectic with exasperation over this phenomenon. He is 20 now and doing a lot of working out. I don't expect his size to stabilize for another couple of years at least. By then he can buy his own clothing--in fact, he will have to since he will have pauperized me by that time with his constant financial demands!