OK Gents, now I am sufficiently confused. I enjoy wearing suspenders and, over the last 10 years, I have accumulated a decent collection of Trafalgars and Thurstons. Before reading the various fora and Flusser books, I would wear suspenders with regular RTW belted suit trousers. I have since learned this is a major faux pas, but I still do it anyway from time to time since I largely wear RTW suits. (Still hoping that Beaman can correct this situation, but let's keep that issue bracketed.) I really do not like wearing belts with my suits.
My questions are what are my options for proper trousers when commissioning bespoke suits?
With proper high back braces trousers, do you also get a strap and buckle on the sides? Or is that either not necessary or a faux pas?
Can you wear high back braces trousers with braces without a waistcoat?
What if you get the trousers made with strap and buckle on the sides (but not proper high back trousers, just higher cut), can you wear braces with such trousers?
Is it really gauche to wear braces without a waistcoat?
When does one get the strap and buckle in the back of the trousers? Is such a strap and buckle used just for decorative purposes?
Any thoughts, opinions, insights, illustrations, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Braces, Trousers, Waistcoats....
You can have a strap and buckle if you like. It is not a faux pas, du tout! But it is more aesthetic without.With proper high back braces trousers, do you also get a strap and buckle on the sides? Or is that either not necessary or a faux pas?
Please do. Most of us could not wear our DBs otherwise.Can you wear high back braces trousers with braces without a waistcoat?
Bien sur! Yes. Have you been reading some sartorial Nurse Ratchets on the other sites?What if you get the trousers made with strap and buckle on the sides (but not proper high back trousers, just higher cut), can you wear braces with such trousers?
It is not gauche to wear braces without a waistcoat. Is someone pulling your leg? Could it be that someone has suggested you wear a waistcoat when brace buttons have been sewn on the outside of the waistband of the trouser?Is it really gauche to wear braces without a waistcoat?
Do you see a V on the back of the waistband of your trousers? Then place a strap and buckle if you choose to regulate the comings and goings of excess kilos you may put on over time.When does one get the strap and buckle in the back of the trousers? Is such a strap and buckle used just for decorative purposes?
I would start with a fairly simple configuration for a trouser. More concern should be demonstrated about the rise, trouser length and the trouser's overall "line","line" and "line."
It is funny how we can obsess about the minutia and ignore the main point.More concern should be demonstrated about the rise, trouser length and the trouser's overall "line","line" and "line."
Mr. Alden’s last sentence was, of course, the most important by far, and I would re-characterize it thus:
More concern should be demonstrated about the rise, trouser length and the trouser's overall "line","line" and "line."
But back to the minutia for a moment - I suspect that whatever you heard, bry2000, about not wearing braces without a waistcoat was really a conflating of two different ideas - 1. that you should not generally show your braces, and therefore that you should take special care not remove your jacket if you are wearing braces and 2. that a waistcoat allows you to remove your jacket without showing your braces.
2. is certainly true. I observe 1. always at a meeting, but not always in my office.
-
Collarmelton
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:19 am
- Contact:
This is diving back into the minutiae again, but I learned after years of looking silly that if the inside tines of the front forks of braces are placed directly above the front creases, trousers hang better. Store tailors could never be bothered to care.
-
BirdofSydney
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:33 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Riddle me this, if you will, gents.
Clip on braces are unwearable, this is self evident.
I am however, not fond of the forks at the front of button braces. I wonder, is it possible to obtain suspenders that have only a single button, so that the silk would descend nearly to the waistline, with a small piece of leather with the buttonhole. Would this be either uncomfortable, ineffective or silly-looking?
Should I grasp the nettle and simply obtain some forked braces, hoping that they'll grow on me? Should I stick to belts? Should I seek professional assistance?
And, if that's not enough of a perverse idea, what are our opinions on leather braces? They have an appealing Weimar Germany air about them (and I am of East Prussian heritage). On the other hand, they're probably uncomfortable, almost certainly will wear the shoulders of my shirts, and may project the somewhat concerning air of someone who enjoys wearing leather when not strictly necessary. They may also come across as too intentionally anachronistic. On the other hand, they are an intriguing point of difference, and will place me at a comfortable distance from the red-suspenders brigade of Wall Street cliche.
Finally, they are vaguely reminiscent of a holster, and I have always harboured a secret desire to be a detective...
Regards (and thankyou for not judging me!),
Eden
Clip on braces are unwearable, this is self evident.
I am however, not fond of the forks at the front of button braces. I wonder, is it possible to obtain suspenders that have only a single button, so that the silk would descend nearly to the waistline, with a small piece of leather with the buttonhole. Would this be either uncomfortable, ineffective or silly-looking?
Should I grasp the nettle and simply obtain some forked braces, hoping that they'll grow on me? Should I stick to belts? Should I seek professional assistance?
And, if that's not enough of a perverse idea, what are our opinions on leather braces? They have an appealing Weimar Germany air about them (and I am of East Prussian heritage). On the other hand, they're probably uncomfortable, almost certainly will wear the shoulders of my shirts, and may project the somewhat concerning air of someone who enjoys wearing leather when not strictly necessary. They may also come across as too intentionally anachronistic. On the other hand, they are an intriguing point of difference, and will place me at a comfortable distance from the red-suspenders brigade of Wall Street cliche.
Finally, they are vaguely reminiscent of a holster, and I have always harboured a secret desire to be a detective...
Regards (and thankyou for not judging me!),
Eden
-
Collarmelton
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:19 am
- Contact:
Eden:
I daresay boxcloth braces surely will set you apart from the Wall Street crowd!
I daresay boxcloth braces surely will set you apart from the Wall Street crowd!
Bry,
One day riding on a bus, yours truly sat next to an ancient, withered lady who seemed to have stepped off the pages of the first scene of Macbeth. She dispensed a bit of advice: “It you are to be successful in life, you will need a good lawyer, a good accountant and a good tailor! (N.B.: This is not an advertisement or an incitation to use the professional services of our members: legal eagles, CPAs or tailors.) Following in the spirit of her words, it is appropriate to conclude that there are a few areas were cheap advice or hearsay can be damaging: advice that might see you one day before a court of law, involved in an audit or worse of all, in an ill-fitting, poorly cut suit.
The whirlwind of sartorial advice from many sources, internet forums, magazine articles and literally hundreds of books on the subject can be very confusing. This is one of the reasons thelondonlounge was created, to provide insight as opposed to advice, to offer the fruits of experience as opposed to the recitation of often misunderstood and improperly applied theories. Your state of confusion regarding braces is indicative of the problem. If you are still not sure how to proceed with the commissioning of your trousers, ask on!
Braces are to be worn and not seen as Dopey has pointed out. Its not the end of civilization as we know it, if they are seen, but it is best to avoid same to the extent it is possible. That does not mean being obliged to a waistcoat to cover them systematically. Some men prefer muted colors and styles in their braces to aid in keeping them discrete, but this is a subject of taste.
There are, grosso modo, two kinds of bespoke dressers: those who maintain their body weight all year long and over the years; and those who vary in their body weight through the seasons of the year and over the years. The former dressers can set the fit of their clothes easily. The later group need a bit of flexibility in their fit. Straps and buckles can provide a bit of flexibility in the fit of a trouser, especially those worn with braces. If brace trousers are too snug, the braces cannot do their job properly and the trousers will not fall well.
Some gents will fit their brace trousers with the straps quite tight. As Winter progresses and the effects of copious amounts of Champagne and foie gras make their yearly appearance, these men can loosen the straps progressively to allow room for their newly found dimensions. And if the trousers are cut and fit properly, the strap and buckle (or buttons on the waistband) will allow you to wear the trousers in a pinch without braces.
The happy few who do not vary in their weight can wear their brace trousers without straps and buckle and in doing so enjoy a cleaner overall appearance. The point is that braces and straps serve an exact purpose that one man will require and another not. Your specific use should be the guide in your selection of these features. There are no laws broken or etiquette violated by your choice.
The old lady on the bus added, “If you are successful, and if you feel children are indispensable you will need a wife.” She went onto say that the two most important things a man can do to insure that he has the company of ladies are to always take care that his hands are well groomed, clean with impeccable, manicured nails; and that his shoes are the best he can afford and are always beautifully polished. Not such bad advice after all!
One day riding on a bus, yours truly sat next to an ancient, withered lady who seemed to have stepped off the pages of the first scene of Macbeth. She dispensed a bit of advice: “It you are to be successful in life, you will need a good lawyer, a good accountant and a good tailor! (N.B.: This is not an advertisement or an incitation to use the professional services of our members: legal eagles, CPAs or tailors.) Following in the spirit of her words, it is appropriate to conclude that there are a few areas were cheap advice or hearsay can be damaging: advice that might see you one day before a court of law, involved in an audit or worse of all, in an ill-fitting, poorly cut suit.
The whirlwind of sartorial advice from many sources, internet forums, magazine articles and literally hundreds of books on the subject can be very confusing. This is one of the reasons thelondonlounge was created, to provide insight as opposed to advice, to offer the fruits of experience as opposed to the recitation of often misunderstood and improperly applied theories. Your state of confusion regarding braces is indicative of the problem. If you are still not sure how to proceed with the commissioning of your trousers, ask on!
Braces are to be worn and not seen as Dopey has pointed out. Its not the end of civilization as we know it, if they are seen, but it is best to avoid same to the extent it is possible. That does not mean being obliged to a waistcoat to cover them systematically. Some men prefer muted colors and styles in their braces to aid in keeping them discrete, but this is a subject of taste.
There are, grosso modo, two kinds of bespoke dressers: those who maintain their body weight all year long and over the years; and those who vary in their body weight through the seasons of the year and over the years. The former dressers can set the fit of their clothes easily. The later group need a bit of flexibility in their fit. Straps and buckles can provide a bit of flexibility in the fit of a trouser, especially those worn with braces. If brace trousers are too snug, the braces cannot do their job properly and the trousers will not fall well.
Some gents will fit their brace trousers with the straps quite tight. As Winter progresses and the effects of copious amounts of Champagne and foie gras make their yearly appearance, these men can loosen the straps progressively to allow room for their newly found dimensions. And if the trousers are cut and fit properly, the strap and buckle (or buttons on the waistband) will allow you to wear the trousers in a pinch without braces.
The happy few who do not vary in their weight can wear their brace trousers without straps and buckle and in doing so enjoy a cleaner overall appearance. The point is that braces and straps serve an exact purpose that one man will require and another not. Your specific use should be the guide in your selection of these features. There are no laws broken or etiquette violated by your choice.
The old lady on the bus added, “If you are successful, and if you feel children are indispensable you will need a wife.” She went onto say that the two most important things a man can do to insure that he has the company of ladies are to always take care that his hands are well groomed, clean with impeccable, manicured nails; and that his shoes are the best he can afford and are always beautifully polished. Not such bad advice after all!
There is an old (English?) tradition that braces are akin to underwear and should never be seen. Beyond this, they became so popular in America (especially in big cities and certain industries) in the 1980s that they came to be regarded as costume. A lot of men developed a phobia to them in the 90s, especially younger men, who did not want to be thought pretentious. It was not at all uncommon for the young to be abused by their colleagues as "Gekko wannabes" if they wore braces. Even today, the stigma is very strong in the investment banking industry. I have talked to younger guys (20s & 30s) and there are a lot of semi-adventurous things they will wear, but suspeders (braces) remain taboo.
Personally, I have always worn them since I started getting bespoke suits. I prefer high-rise trousers, and like the way braces maintain good line and a sharp crease. Also, I think the principle of "suspension" is inherently more comfortable than the principle of "binding."
I have never felt it necessary to cover suspenders with vests. I like 3-piece suits for fall and winter, and always order heavier cloth with a vest. I prefer summer suits with belted trousers because I find that suspenders are not cooler, but hotter in the worst weather. But I have plenty of 2-piece suits that I wear with suspenders. I do not hesitate to take off my jacket in the office and let the suspenders be visible by all. But I will always wear my jacket outside, to restaurants, meetings, etc. Not so much to cover the suspenders, by the way. I wear the jacket outside even in summer with belted trousers.
Personally, I have always worn them since I started getting bespoke suits. I prefer high-rise trousers, and like the way braces maintain good line and a sharp crease. Also, I think the principle of "suspension" is inherently more comfortable than the principle of "binding."
I have never felt it necessary to cover suspenders with vests. I like 3-piece suits for fall and winter, and always order heavier cloth with a vest. I prefer summer suits with belted trousers because I find that suspenders are not cooler, but hotter in the worst weather. But I have plenty of 2-piece suits that I wear with suspenders. I do not hesitate to take off my jacket in the office and let the suspenders be visible by all. But I will always wear my jacket outside, to restaurants, meetings, etc. Not so much to cover the suspenders, by the way. I wear the jacket outside even in summer with belted trousers.
Do any of you have trousers made without belt loops or brace buttons, probably not the high-rise variety? I had been thinking of this option for a while, and recently saw a picture of Steve Wynn wearing just this style. I couldn't tell if the trousers were flat-front or pleated(if pleated, they were small pleats and blended in the photo), but I thought that they looked sharp.
-
BenedictSpinola
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:23 pm
- Location: Cantabrigium
- Contact:
Mathew,
I have many trousers of the variety you describe - I prefer either a "Daks" waistband or side-adjusters for any trousers that I would wear with a coat, including moleskins. These styles look good without supsenders if you prefer not to wear the latter and if they don't have a "high rise".
Spinola
I have many trousers of the variety you describe - I prefer either a "Daks" waistband or side-adjusters for any trousers that I would wear with a coat, including moleskins. These styles look good without supsenders if you prefer not to wear the latter and if they don't have a "high rise".
Spinola
Spinola, I've seen the side-adjusters, and in terms of function I might like them. Thanks.
Being discrete with one’s braces is an English habit. The old guys used to say that while the view of a ladies “porte-jartelles” might please a man, the sight of braces had the opposite reaction on a woman. We probably need to do a londonlounge survey of 20 female garter belt wearers to know for sure.
I find the use of tone on tone colors between suit and braces is a good idea, especially for city wear. In this way, the brace’s color tends to disappear into the overall image. Subdued colors such as grays, blues, beiges etc. are convenient for this purpose.
The flip side of this conversation will be from those who knowingly will never reveal their braces and therefore like to choose wild colors that will be their “secret” hidden from the world. No harm at all in this practice. Some ladies wear some terrific underwear under their dress as well (or so I am told.) And the Italians believe that if one wears “red” underwear on New Years Eve, they will have luck all the next year. Never worked for me, but that might be because the closest I have come to being Italian is using some of their artisans to make my clothes and their cuisine to have to buy new and bigger clothes.
One comment for our younger readers: sorting or matching braces with a neck-tie is not appreciated. It is as unfortunate as sorting or matching a pocket square with the necktie. That’s about the only thing I can think of to really be too concerned about with respect to braces. They do come in sizes, so make sure that the ones you have are the right size.
Gentlemen
The key word here as with so many other details of dressing is “discrete.” We are not talking about being constantly in fear and obsessed with minute details. Obsessive behavior obviates any hope of elegance. It is a perfectly contrary state of same. Elegance is distinguished by ease, grace, sprezzatura, disinterested insouciance, controlled whimsy, call it what you will. It does not emanate from an immense and concentrated flexing of will, obsessive fretting, or morose detail magnification. Always try to determine that which is essential, “the rest is dross.”
Relax. Now doesn’t that feel immediately better?
Cheers
I find the use of tone on tone colors between suit and braces is a good idea, especially for city wear. In this way, the brace’s color tends to disappear into the overall image. Subdued colors such as grays, blues, beiges etc. are convenient for this purpose.
The flip side of this conversation will be from those who knowingly will never reveal their braces and therefore like to choose wild colors that will be their “secret” hidden from the world. No harm at all in this practice. Some ladies wear some terrific underwear under their dress as well (or so I am told.) And the Italians believe that if one wears “red” underwear on New Years Eve, they will have luck all the next year. Never worked for me, but that might be because the closest I have come to being Italian is using some of their artisans to make my clothes and their cuisine to have to buy new and bigger clothes.
One comment for our younger readers: sorting or matching braces with a neck-tie is not appreciated. It is as unfortunate as sorting or matching a pocket square with the necktie. That’s about the only thing I can think of to really be too concerned about with respect to braces. They do come in sizes, so make sure that the ones you have are the right size.
Gentlemen
The key word here as with so many other details of dressing is “discrete.” We are not talking about being constantly in fear and obsessed with minute details. Obsessive behavior obviates any hope of elegance. It is a perfectly contrary state of same. Elegance is distinguished by ease, grace, sprezzatura, disinterested insouciance, controlled whimsy, call it what you will. It does not emanate from an immense and concentrated flexing of will, obsessive fretting, or morose detail magnification. Always try to determine that which is essential, “the rest is dross.”
Relax. Now doesn’t that feel immediately better?
Cheers
Sans-A-Belt makes a wide variety of trousers without loops or buttons, in both pleated and flat-front models and in many different fabrics. They have several rows of rubberized strips around the inside of the non-roll waistband which grip the shirt, keeping both the pants up and the shirt nicely tucked. All the ones I have are regular rise, but I seem to remember having seen them also in a high rise version. They do not generally come with any kind of waist adjustment, so they're pretty much for someone whose girth doesn't vary too much. They do come with a sufficiently long cloth strip for your tailor to make belt loops should you desire them. I imagine one could also work out some sort of narrow belt and ring arrangement using these strips.mathew wrote:Do any of you have trousers made without belt loops or brace buttons, probably not the high-rise variety? I had been thinking of this option for a while, and recently saw a picture of Steve Wynn wearing just this style. I couldn't tell if the trousers were flat-front or pleated(if pleated, they were small pleats and blended in the photo), but I thought that they looked sharp.
I love the line of these trousers. They hang beautifully from the waist, almost as well as from braces, and they do keep one's shirt better tucked, a distinct disadvantage to braces (I'm not about to suggest the old technique of tucking the shirttail into the shorts).
-
BirdofSydney
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:33 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Mr. Alden, you may be assured that I can make myself available for this purpose on extremely short notice, should the need arise.alden wrote:We probably need to do a londonlounge survey of 20 female garter belt wearers to know for sure.
What do we think of endeavouring to match braces to shirt colour, to really make them nearly invisible? Pale grey may be a good choice, to go with either white or light blue shirts. Boxcloth in lieu of silk will avoid the eye-drawing sheen. Ends in white leather, then?alden wrote:I find the use of tone on tone colors between suit and braces is a good idea, especially for city wear. In this way, the brace’s color tends to disappear into the overall image. Subdued colors such as grays, blues, beiges etc. are convenient for this purpose.
FInally, I've been doing a little investigation into my initial question of whether the forked leather at the front can be foregone. While a single-button leather piece certainly does exist (and is used the back on "X" shaped braces designed for a split-back trouser, so far as I can tell), I'm not sure that the trousers would at all sit correctly.
I think I have isolated the cause of my concern. The purpose of wearing suspenders would be to allow my trousers to comfortably sit high, elongating the line of my suit and making me look taller. In the event that I were to be seen without a jacket, which would be regrettable, but probably necessary, at least in my own office, the "forks" would break up the vertical line and make my body look rather "segmented".
Perhaps side buckles are my road to Damascus? Or else, a belt of sufficient subtlety that it does not break up my line?
Regards,
Eden
-
- Information
-
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 84 guests