First row shows DB lapels; SB lapels in the second.
God is in the details.
A study in lapels
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Gruto
- from Copenhagen tailors in the 1930s:
First row shows DB lapels; SB lapels in the second.
God is in the details.
First row shows DB lapels; SB lapels in the second.
God is in the details.
Hello, all.
I'm new to the forum, so let me say thanks for having me.
What would be the differences between a single- and double-breasted peak lapel? And, for that matter, what, specifically, is the difference between the pictured notches? Would there be a different application - suit vs. odd jacket, say - for each?
I'm new to the forum, so let me say thanks for having me.
What would be the differences between a single- and double-breasted peak lapel? And, for that matter, what, specifically, is the difference between the pictured notches? Would there be a different application - suit vs. odd jacket, say - for each?
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Simon A
Peaked lapels on single breasted suits are not so common these days; I would leave it to those more knowledgeable than I whether this is a shame or not. Perhaps it lends a more formal air? If one is looking for some contemporary examples, a Japanese website http://www.the30sstyle.comhas some great photos of beautifully executed 3-piece SB's with peaked lapels; I think Michael may have referred to this site in the past. Some examples of business suits and leisure suits;
If you go to the Gallery on this site, there are many more detailed photos. The tailor has used vintage fabrics as well as retro styling, it really is fascinating to see. The fanaticism of Japanese craftsmen for attention to detail, and fierce pursuit of perfection, is a wonder to behold, be it in clothing, food presentation or watercolour painting. I have always admired how the Japanese can take something great from abroad and make it even better.
If you go to the Gallery on this site, there are many more detailed photos. The tailor has used vintage fabrics as well as retro styling, it really is fascinating to see. The fanaticism of Japanese craftsmen for attention to detail, and fierce pursuit of perfection, is a wonder to behold, be it in clothing, food presentation or watercolour painting. I have always admired how the Japanese can take something great from abroad and make it even better.
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Jordan Marc
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Simon A:
Interesting as the Japanese site may be, there is something out of proportion about the examples of single-breasted three-piece suits, namely the peak lapels which are much too wide and foreshorten the bosom area of the various models. The same goes for the double-breasted suits shown. Too tight in the chest. Further, the vests are all but hidden from view. I have no objection to peak lapels on single-breasted suits, but the coats need either a single-button or two-button closure for best effect. Either way, only one button is done. It creates a long V-shaped opening to expose the vest that is much more flattering to the wearer. Think of it this way: starting from the shirt collar, the knot of your tie forms a V which, in turn, is followed lower down by the V opening of the vest. That, in turn, is followed by the button closure at the natural waist of the wearer. Complementing the style of the suit is the long upward sweep of the peak lapels, which must be properly proportioned for the well-suited man. Google Cesare Attolini to see photos of how this brilliant Neopolitan tailor handles peak lapel suits, then have a look at some of the sites for English tailors on and off the Row to see how they do it.
JMB
Interesting as the Japanese site may be, there is something out of proportion about the examples of single-breasted three-piece suits, namely the peak lapels which are much too wide and foreshorten the bosom area of the various models. The same goes for the double-breasted suits shown. Too tight in the chest. Further, the vests are all but hidden from view. I have no objection to peak lapels on single-breasted suits, but the coats need either a single-button or two-button closure for best effect. Either way, only one button is done. It creates a long V-shaped opening to expose the vest that is much more flattering to the wearer. Think of it this way: starting from the shirt collar, the knot of your tie forms a V which, in turn, is followed lower down by the V opening of the vest. That, in turn, is followed by the button closure at the natural waist of the wearer. Complementing the style of the suit is the long upward sweep of the peak lapels, which must be properly proportioned for the well-suited man. Google Cesare Attolini to see photos of how this brilliant Neopolitan tailor handles peak lapel suits, then have a look at some of the sites for English tailors on and off the Row to see how they do it.
JMB
JMB, I suppose this could be a SB peak lapel coat you and I might like:
Your critique of the Japanese examples has some sound arguments and I agree that in general peak lapels need some height to sweep across for the best effect. Something along these lines:
Incidentally, both of these pictures illustrate INformal suits and environments, so the peak lapel actually covers a wide spectrum of formality, from white tie to casual summerwear. Well, casual as we understand it here
The following is a most rare AA/Esky illustration of a 3B SB peak lapel coat:
Not very inspiring, I must admit.
However, THIS idea of a 3B roll to 2,5 SB peak lapel coat...
...did inspire me to have this jacket made:
It looks better now, that the lapels "unrolled" a little more, and it's at least an interesting take at a 3B SB peak... which brings us back to the first picture of my post, which is in fact also a 3B roll to 2.5 SB peak lapel, isn't it?
Your critique of the Japanese examples has some sound arguments and I agree that in general peak lapels need some height to sweep across for the best effect. Something along these lines:
Incidentally, both of these pictures illustrate INformal suits and environments, so the peak lapel actually covers a wide spectrum of formality, from white tie to casual summerwear. Well, casual as we understand it here
The following is a most rare AA/Esky illustration of a 3B SB peak lapel coat:
Not very inspiring, I must admit.
However, THIS idea of a 3B roll to 2,5 SB peak lapel coat...
...did inspire me to have this jacket made:
It looks better now, that the lapels "unrolled" a little more, and it's at least an interesting take at a 3B SB peak... which brings us back to the first picture of my post, which is in fact also a 3B roll to 2.5 SB peak lapel, isn't it?
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Simon A
Thankyou for the critique. I will admit that the two-button jacket amongst these four suits seems more attractive, probably for the reason you mention about having a bit more vest showing, and a less "stubby" lapel. What width of lapel would you consider optimal; halfway between shoulder and medial aspect of lapel, two thirds or three quarters?
Levi, we got carried away by the subject, but let me welcome you to the Lounge - your first question (and Gruto's post) already triggered a lot of activity 
The DB and SB peak lapels LOOK the same, but they are cut differently. Some tailors say the SB coats with peak lapels are a bit more difficult to do well than SB with notch lapels or a DB (usually with peak lapels, unless it is a shawl collar dinner coat or smoking jacket). As for applications of peak lapels on SB coats, they range from white tie and black tie, morning coats and strollers, through business suits and all the way to tweed jackets (though more rarely sported) and casual wear (as illustrated above). It is a matter of style rather than formality - a preference.
The shape and width and length of the peak lapels are the variables that make or break the look. They may look natural and appropriate (as I believe the case is with the first image I posted above), or contrived and artificial when they are in one or more ways out of proportion (too short, too stubby, too narrow, too fat, too bellied, too straight, too pointed, too flat etc.).
As for the difference between the pictured notch lapels, it is again a matter of taste and preference, without one style being appropriate only for certain applications. As Gruto wrote, God is in the details: a small curvature, a couple of centimeters more or less in length or width can make the difference between a beautiful lapel and its contrary.
The DB and SB peak lapels LOOK the same, but they are cut differently. Some tailors say the SB coats with peak lapels are a bit more difficult to do well than SB with notch lapels or a DB (usually with peak lapels, unless it is a shawl collar dinner coat or smoking jacket). As for applications of peak lapels on SB coats, they range from white tie and black tie, morning coats and strollers, through business suits and all the way to tweed jackets (though more rarely sported) and casual wear (as illustrated above). It is a matter of style rather than formality - a preference.
The shape and width and length of the peak lapels are the variables that make or break the look. They may look natural and appropriate (as I believe the case is with the first image I posted above), or contrived and artificial when they are in one or more ways out of proportion (too short, too stubby, too narrow, too fat, too bellied, too straight, too pointed, too flat etc.).
As for the difference between the pictured notch lapels, it is again a matter of taste and preference, without one style being appropriate only for certain applications. As Gruto wrote, God is in the details: a small curvature, a couple of centimeters more or less in length or width can make the difference between a beautiful lapel and its contrary.
For notch lapels, I tend to think that the safest option is for a lapel width that is just about halfway, though I have experimented with both (much) wider and (slightly) narrower lapels.Simon A wrote:Thankyou for the critique. I will admit that the two-button jacket amongst these four suits seems more attractive, probably for the reason you mention about having a bit more vest showing, and a less "stubby" lapel. What width of lapel would you consider optimal; halfway between shoulder and medial aspect of lapel, two thirds or three quarters?
I also feel that wider lapels do better with 'rounder' ('softer') shoulders on jackets, but that is just my personal interpretation of what constitutes a harmonious appearance - if shoulders are strongly roped (a 'hard' and clear vertical line) and the shoulder line more close to the horizontal, I find that the wider lapel tends to look a little 'trapped' against this backdrop, like a large dog in a small cage.
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Simon A
Thankyou Zeitgeist.
What opinion do you, or anyone else, hold regarding width of peaked lapels on SB jackets?
What opinion do you, or anyone else, hold regarding width of peaked lapels on SB jackets?
For peak lapel SBs, I find that a width just over half the distance to the shoulder is most pleasing to my eye. Especially abominable IMO are the extremely narrow peak lapels that pop up occasionally in the fashion chains.Simon A wrote:Thankyou Zeitgeist.
What opinion do you, or anyone else, hold regarding width of peaked lapels on SB jackets?
Either way, I find a lapel that tapers elegantly down to be most complimentary to a man's overall presentation, and have assiduously stayed away from the 'hatchet' shaped (short and broad) ones, be they notch or peak.
One thing that I have noticed about the Japanese examples above is that the front buttons on 2 of them strike me as being too big, and consequently a little obtrusive.
This may or may not have something to do with the responsible tailor using 'standard' 32/30L front buttons on tailored clothes for men with 32-36" chests, in what appears to be a closely hewn cut.
This may or may not have something to do with the responsible tailor using 'standard' 32/30L front buttons on tailored clothes for men with 32-36" chests, in what appears to be a closely hewn cut.
I don't know...I don't much care for peaks on SBs anymore. I used to when starting out, but no longer. Maybe too showy. Maybe I'm getting too conservative in my dotage.
Who was it that said that peaks look good on bandleaders...? Was it Alden? That was brutal but the image remains. He's probably right too.
Who was it that said that peaks look good on bandleaders...? Was it Alden? That was brutal but the image remains. He's probably right too.
Thanks for the clarification. Discussions like this one are exactly the reason I signed up!
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Simon A
One aspect I liked in these suits was the fabric used. They are very much vintage style textiles; does anyone else like these alternate-coloured pinstripes?
I like the grey, but, for some reason, have never liked the multi-colored stripes on a navy ground. On the grey they look classic and distinguished, but not so much on the blue. I do have a navy DB with a slightly lighter blue stripe and a very thin gold stripe, though. Maybe it's the width of the stripes that's throwing me.
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