English suts give backache - according to Tom Ford

[Costi]

Is oiling your chest hair a prerequisite to the Ford look? I have never seen chest hair oil at Trumpers, have you? There may be a market for the stuff, if the fad persists a few more months.

Michael, if you were a true admirer you'd know it is THERE already! And it leaves your skin "lightly scented with TOM FORD FOR MEN", too - it's like an olfactive label worn on the outside

[zeitgeist]

This thread/forum... depresses me sometimes.

You all sound like the stalwarts of 'conservative' and 'proper' Style (with a capital 'S', mind you), sniping away at the caddish (how dare they!) and (in all truth) sometimes overwrought results of what you consider to be disposable fashion, an affront to the aforementioned ideal, while completely missing the spirit behind it.

Oddly enough, would similar comments not have been hurled in days gone by at Brummel when he first sobered up menswear? Or wore the predecessor of the necktie? Or to the first French dandies who injected a bit of the Baroque into menswear in the first? Or the DOW when he stepped out in some of his more eccentric tweed suits? Or Agnelli when he first wore hiking boots with his suit? Or the first tailor who cut a drape cut in stark contrast to the more closely hewn cuts that were prevalent? Or the first dandy who used perfume? Or even the first dandy who advocated baths more than once yearly?

Yet all these are taken for granted today, and accepted as part of the norm. Heck, some figures are even placed on a pedestal, and thought of to be style icons that we should aspire to emulate.

And what was the crucial ingredient that made them all 'style icons'?

Yep, that's right - change. Which makes many of the posts here replete with irony indeed: near hero-worship of people who advocated change in masculine fashion and 'stirring things up', while simultaneously condemning their heirs...

And to this 'reasoning' that IMO stretches the limits of logic...

It interests me that the two main impediments to bespoke have always been price and convenience. But now the best in RTW is roughly the same price. Likewise, with the advent of email, digital photography, super efficient air travel and shipping, even those who have to rely on traveling tailors don't have much to complain about. Once they have the fit well established, turnaround time can be as little as three months. I can easily imagine it taking a month to get fitted for RTW.

Anyone who doesn't have a spare hour or two once a quarter to spend with a bespoke tailor might want to think about reorganizing priorities. It's one of the great pleasures in life. And the return on the investment of time and money is considerable. I always feel a little bit taller, thinner, stand a little straighter, better equipped for the things life throws my way.

C

...in response I will say:

- no, despite it only being 'a spare hour or 2 every quarter', not everyone is willing to wait for a traveling tailor, fit him/her into their schedule, and then endure a 4-7 month turnaround for a bespoke suit, more if multiple fittings are sought;
- no, not everyone is willing to wait 3 months for a suit in the 'best case scenario' with a traveling tailor after their fit is all dialed in;
- no, not everyone is willing to court uncertainty and drop bespoke money with a traveling tailor for what is, really, at best a strong possibility of a great suit (as we have seen here in the LL, going to a B&M establishment, even if it is an old and established name is no guarantee of fit or quality!);
- no, not everyone is willing to bargain/compromise with a tailor over what he/she can or will not do because of 'house style' or any other limits (be they true limits or self-imposed ones) - a true role reversal if I have seen one that is not only accepted but actively encouraged today it would seem;
- no, not everyone is willing to fly all the way to London/Naples/Rome/etc and add at least 50% to the cost (airfare, accommodation, food, etc)for a bespoke suit;
- no, not everyone is willing to leave things to chance and conduct a fitting via digital photography - a simple browse through the photos taken by members on this site should make it abundantly clear that the photographic skills of many here are sorely lacking;

...and finally,

- no, RTW 'fitting' does not take a month (where did you get that concept from? or are you actually referring to MTM?)

Yes, the bespoke experience is one of life's great pleasures. But consider also that there is so much potential for things to go wrong, and that many simply do not lead a lifestyle which can easily accommodate it.

That is all, and will be my last reply in this sorry debacle of a thread.

[storeynicholas]

This thread/forum... depresses me sometimes.

[1]You all sound like the stalwarts of 'conservative' and 'proper' Style (with a capital 'S', mind you), sniping away at the caddish (how dare they!) and (in all truth) sometimes overwrought results of what you consider to be disposable fashion, an affront to the aforementioned ideal, while completely missing the spirit behind it.


[2]That is all, and will be my last reply in this sorry debacle of a thread.

[1] Come off it, Ye Spirit of The Age, the spirit behind Tom Ford is cash profit. The icons that we admire hereabouts had occupations; never selling over-priced junk to unsuspecting and gullible Joes.

[2] Surely, hearing others' arguments, in support of ideals that they hold, doesn't give you a head ache, just because you disagree, does it?
NJS.

[Costi]

This thread/forum... depresses me sometimes.

Dear Zeitgeist, rejoice in your depression! That's exactly how Messer Ford must have felt about A&S and now look at the marvelous results of his spleen!

That is all, and will be my last reply in this sorry debacle of a thread.

Since you won't share your toys with us anymore in this thread, I will simply put down my thoughts as for myself.

There is a story about a certain Ferruccio, an Italian manufacturer of tractors, who was the proud owner of a Ferrari in the early sixties of the last century. Unhappy with the clutch of his 250 GT, one day he went to Mr. Ferrari to complain about it, who was quick to show him the door and advise him to go back to driving his tractors if he didn't know better. Ferruccio found a clutch in his own backyard that fitted his Ferrari (as he discovered he shared the same clutch manufacturer for his tractors) and promised himself to vindicate Ferrari's arrogance by building a better car. So far so good, there are similarities in our stories, but there is innovation and "innovation": Ferruccio created the Lamborghini cars, while our Tom made a... Ford?!

There is another parable of a simple man from the country who married a town girl. He liked to drink a cup of hot milk every evening before retiring to bed. His wife always bought the freshest and best milk, boiled it with utmost care, but the husband was never satisfied, as the milk never tasted like the one his mother would give him. The desperate wife changed the milk, changed the pot, changed the stove, but whatever she tried she could never satisfy him. One evening she forgot the pot with milk on the hot stove and it god badly burnt and smoked. As she didnt' have other fresh milk to replace it, she could hardly think of what her husband would say to her upon tasting it. After dinner he asked for his usual cup of milk and, as soon as he tasted it, his face lit up, he smiled at her, kissed her hand and said: "Finally, after all these years, the first cup of properly boiled milk, just like my mother gave it to me every day all through my childhood!".
As she was a good wife and loved her husband, I suppose she gave him smoked milk every evening all the rest of his life. However, A&S was not married to Mr. Ford and certainly did not love him and therefore had no reason to accommodate too personal a taste. There are so many tailoring shops where one may have clothes made according to to he most extravagant of specifications, that I find it disrespectful to go to one of the few houses that you know to be proud about a certain "tradition and heritage" and ask them to outrage and maim it for your sake.

We are not the sartorial Inquisition here (that has a different www address) and we will not call "Blasphemy!" on your comparing Messer Ford to the likes of Brummel, the late Duke of Windsor or Agnelli, but I think there is a great difference in substance and purpose between the former (as you characterized him in an earlier post) and the others who, as NJS wrote, took a personal view on dress rather than bring about change for the sake of it. And, if you take a good look at it, there is hardly any change or innovation at all with TF, just a glossy magazine, dubious taste re-interpretation of the classics that is as far removed from the notion of elegance - the focus of this forum - as Mr. Ford is from the Duke of Windsor &co.

[alden]

Zeitgeist

The unshaven with bountiful tufts of oiled chest hair look is neither a change nor is it new. There is an argument to say that this fashion largely predates Windsor, Brummel and most of what we refer to as civilization. In this sense I suppose you could call it the most ancient “classic” look, one that has inspired our revolutions. Not only this, but I think it is safe to say that the crushing majority of men throughout recorded history have dressed exactly like Ford. So he is actually playing to a very safe market segment.

Dining with a friend the other day who spoke about “classic” dress, I interrupted him saying that I was not interested in the subject. “What interests me is elegant masculine dress. It could be classic, neoclassic, baroque, modernist, futurist, traditional, eccentric, fashion, RTW or Tom Ford as long as it has style. “

I watched an interview from 1960 with Orson Welles recently where he talks about “traditions” in the acting of Shakespeare. He says, “Most traditions are just a succession of bad habits…lesser actors imitating the affectations of bigger ones…I don’t believe in tradition I believe in the living practice of things.”

The clothes in the picture of Ford above look very good to me. In my opinion, it’s the way they are worn and the overall image that, in living practice, misses the style mark. Goodness, don’t fall into the trap of thinking of it is new, special, or a “change.”

On the other side of the ledger, I think your reservations about bespoke and its process has a foundation in truth. You have detailed the reasons tailoring has not worked out for you, but do understand that others have faced the same challenges and mined excellent results.

Bespoke brings its own challenges and sometimes they are worth assuming and sometimes not. Happily, there is no guarantee, stated or implied, of success or the incarnation of style. So pick your poison carefully.

Cheers

[Des Esseintes]

Gentlemen

I have taken some time to respond to this thread as I am an great admirer of the London Lounge, considering it by far the most knowledgeable but also the most pleasant internet forum dealing with the topic of men’s style, classic or not. Yet, at the same time, I cannot but agree with Zeitgeist on some of his observations and complaints about how this thread has evolved, and, I would add, how the tone and spirit of the London Lounge more generally have lately become tainted somewhat by a degree of self-righteousness and condescension so pleasantly absent from this forum not long ago.

I have observed with some concern that over the course of the last few months that even some of the London Lounge members I have held in the highest esteem, not only for their knowledge and taste in clothes and men’s style but, in particular, also for their restrained, benevolent and “gentlemanly” (to use this much abused term) attitudes dislayed on this forum have gradually taken on a moral high ground and a constant air of mild condescension towards those expressing different views, specifically, if such come in defense of RTW or, worse, “fashion brands”.

I appreciate that this is a meeting place for lovers of bespoke clothing, and consequently wouldn’t expect utter enthusiasm about RTW. I would though argue that we should always remain conscious of the fact that, whether we like it or not, our ability to commission such bespoke clothes is a rare privilege, which we should accept with gratitude and humility. To consider very upmarket RTW clothes overpriced and bad value for money is one thing, to denounce them as “rags” and ridicule them by relating them to the “obligatory oiled chest hair”, as displayed by their inventor and in their marketing campaigns, rather than discussing their cut, cloth, silhouette etc without prejudice should be below the standards of the members of this lounge.

On the topic of Tom Ford’s clothes as such: I don’t own or wear any of his creations, nor do I have any plans to change this, however, comparing them to most other RTW brands offering styles attractive to younger and rather fashion-oriented men, I would argue they are rather well-styled, well-made and generally pleasant to look at. Whether they are over-priced or not is a personal decision, as always.

dE

[storeynicholas]

I've just decided to find something more constructive to do with my time; such as finding some more photographs.
NJS

[alden]

ridicule them by relating them to the “obligatory oiled chest hair”, as displayed by their inventor and in their marketing campaigns, rather than discussing their cut, cloth, silhouette etc without prejudice should be below the standards of the members of this lounge.

dE

You can be so creative when it comes to facts.

Please gather yourself and reread this:

"The clothes in the picture of Ford above look very good to me. In my opinion, it’s the way they are worn and the overall image that, in living practice, misses the style mark."

I think it is a fair comment. From where the offense?

Michael

[shredder]

[1] Come off it, Ye Spirit of The Age, the spirit behind Tom Ford is cash profit.

With respect to the apparel piece of the business, he collects licence fees whilst the financial risk is taken by Zegna, so you summed it up quite nicely, indeed. As for Zegna, I suspect that it will be a little while until the unit's NPV becomes positive.

[alden]

With respect to the apparel piece of the business, he collects licence fees whilst the financial risk is taken by Zegna, so you summed it up quite nicely, indeed. As for Zegna, I suspect that it will be a little while until the unit's NPV becomes positive.

Yes, Mr. Ford is an industrialist without the responsibilities. What fun. This thread began with a discussion of Ford's vitriol against SR. Let's hope it was just a gag. If anything the owners on the Row are probably thanking him for the publicity.

I imagine that his offensive comments are not as pleasant for the population of normal, hardworking men and women who depend on SR to eek out a living. Take a walk someday to Kingsley Street and see the tailors, trouser makers, waistcoat makers, the outworkers mostly immigrants huddled together working 14 hour days to make ends meet, scraping together a few pounds to get their children into school and towards a better life. Visit the cloth merchants and trimmers and see those employed by same, those who get a check each month as long as some crazy men in far flung places have fabrics sewn to suit their vanities. Follow the chain further back and you will find the mills themselves, the thread makers, the finishers, the farmers who raise the sheep and all of those employed in these various activities.

None of these men and women are industrialists. They don’t have PR people and they need to keep their shirts buttoned. I am thinking of them. They are not the sort to complain for under their clothes they wear a layer of thick skin on clean chests. Letting an insult bother would be a show of weakness. They just get on with the work and never mind.

I was on the Row last week visiting many of them and I can assure you their defense is not even a nanometer off the stated purpose of the LL.

Michael Alden

[shredder]

Heigh-ho, we must rise above it and press on with life. -- Noël Coward

[carl browne]

- no, despite it only being 'a spare hour or 2 every quarter', not everyone is willing to wait for a traveling tailor, fit him/her into their schedule, and then endure a 4-7 month turnaround for a bespoke suit, more if multiple fittings are sought;
- no, not everyone is willing to wait 3 months for a suit in the 'best case scenario' with a traveling tailor after their fit is all dialed in;
- no, not everyone is willing to court uncertainty and drop bespoke money with a traveling tailor for what is, really, at best a strong possibility of a great suit (as we have seen here in the LL, going to a B&M establishment, even if it is an old and established name is no guarantee of fit or quality!);
- no, not everyone is willing to bargain/compromise with a tailor over what he/she can or will not do because of 'house style' or any other limits (be they true limits or self-imposed ones) - a true role reversal if I have seen one that is not only accepted but actively encouraged today it would seem;
- no, not everyone is willing to fly all the way to London/Naples/Rome/etc and add at least 50% to the cost (airfare, accommodation, food, etc)for a bespoke suit;
- no, not everyone is willing to leave things to chance and conduct a fitting via digital photography - a simple browse through the photos taken by members on this site should make it abundantly clear that the photographic skills of many here are sorely lacking;

How very sad. I suppose I've just had really good luck for the past 20 years.

[Costi]

Dear des Esseintes,

I appreciate your comments (as always), I take your point and you are probably right that some degree of routine and repetition have somewhat blunted that delicate blade of the spirit that we all appreciate in the LL. I agree with you we should not let this happen to the LL. Perhaps we should take some time to rehone it.
Since dress is not cold science, it is often difficult to opine in a dettached manner; as far as I am concerned, I assure you that even when I use humour in my posts, they are never meant to be disrespectful or, worse, condescending towards fellow LL members, for the simple reason that this is not the way I feel about them. I appreciate others’ strength of character in standing by their idea(l)s – my jests with NJS on smoking have become notorious, but thoroughly enjoyable – and I think that, as long as we stay within the limits of “vigourous debate” (as stated in the LL mission) without insulting each other, we needn’t behave like a pension des demoiselles.
As for Mr. Ford’s oiled chest, in my humble opinion he is selling style (in his own acception) rather than clothes – a point corroborated by the fact that he does not manufacture them – so the association between the clothes and the image he projects (which abounds on the tomford.com website) is only natural. The high price of SR garments has at least some justification in the costs incurred by all the specialized labour employed to make them, whereas RTW luxury clothes are mostly as expensive as their advertising budget, employed to project a style. Therefore I thought there would be little sense in discussing the clothes (cut, fabrics etc.) when the style to which they are subscribed is the real subject here. Finally, my harsh words against TF (never against another LL member!) were an admitted (and assumed) emotional reaction against a dishonest practice – and with ridiculously fantastic arguments! – of denigration against SR.
There is no aprioric bias against stylish RTW on the LL – see this example: http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... gna#p47285. However, I do have an aprioric bias against style cons, who thrive on exploiting human weaknesses (lack of knowledge, undeveloped taste, desire to appear) and actually lead (mostly young) men away from the understanding (and practice) of elegance and right into the abyss of bad taste. Of course, nobody is the ultimate depositary of good taste on this plannet, but we all recognize it when we see it, don’t we?

[carl browne]

Any disparaging remarks that I may have for Tom Ford, Armani, or any others are the result of my extreme enthusiasm for all things bespoke in general, and Savile Row in particular. Since these big outfits don't really interest me at all, there's certainly no reason for me to disparage them.

[storeynicholas]

Exactly, Carl. Moreover, it is not gratuitous disparagement, after all; since these people are (although they so easily forget it), the original aggressors against SR; which rises above it, no doubt in silent appreciation of the 19th Century French politician, Francois Guizot who, being heckled mercilessly, turned on the French Assembly with the words:

"Vous aurez beau amonceler vos calomnies, vous n'arriverez jamais a l'hauteur de mon dedain" ["You may pile up your abuse as high as you like, it will never reach the height of my disdain".

All right, supreme self-assurance but what else is there for it in life?

NJS