The 3-Roll-2 Single Breasted Suit

[Greger]

Don't you think others have been directed errantly to have a lower buttoning point than looks and works best on them, too?.

You are right. People do error the other way. Nowadays, it seems mostly they error too high. Some people are skilled writers, so persuasive, such a manton. If I remember correctly he was saying a few years ago that general button stance is too low, which brings up the question, what is to high? And as I said, some people should have a lower button stance. Some bespoke coats I see have the button stance above the waist indention, do you think that looks right or best. Lines going from there waist up to the button because it is pulling upwards? Or, on people who have a belly that sticks out that the button stance be furture from the apex? While I was vague, the point that I made earlier, is to look and wonder, what can be better, and try somethings in the first baste while it is easy and not permanent.

Some details need to be finalized before the next stage, so if you error you are rightfully stuck with it (tailors can't undo a hugh amount of work that is your error of choice, unless you want to pay lots extra, and even then might have to start over). Full bespoke or semi mtm, where is the line?

The old theory of ...[/quote]

MTM is limited, right? When bespoke has limits it tends towards m2m, because of the limits, even though it is still bespoke. In the not so far past some m2m had lots of hand work (today they don't because they can't find enough people to do it), so they were rather close to bespoke. Wouldn't full bespoke have no limits?

[Simon A]

..

[Costi]

Greger,
Manton's (and others') militating for a higher buttoning point was mostly a REACTION against the generalized low button stance that was the default of most manufacturers. I agree with you too high (or too low, for that matter) looks unbalanced, BUT I would rather err on the high side for the vast majority of body types.
As for "when bespoke has limitations", it reminds me of the joke where mother asks daughter: "Are you pregnant?" - to which she replies: "So and so...". Bespoke has no limits other than the skill of the artisan and the taste of the customer. Everything else, that has limits, is NOT bespoke in my opinion - even if it has ELEMENTS of bespoke, such as being (partially) handmade. The necessary conditions for a garment to be considered bespoke are CUMULATIVE. Defining bespoke as a particular category of MTM is much like Aristotle's "struthio camelus", the feathered camel. In good faith and without stretching and diforming the meaning of simple words, we should agree that MTM and bespoke are really different animals, even if there are similarities in their appearance.

[Costi]

Simon,
That looks to me like a Windsor-style 2B, i.e. one above and one below the waist. Not a particularly successful interpretation.
Your main problem appears to be tightness rather than buttoning point - and you are right, coats should not be painted on. Being unable to lift your arms is a sign of poor cutting - probably too low armholes, too.
Endymion Porter, an English diplomat, used to wear his wife's diamond necklace as a hat ribbon, but that happened in the early 1630's at the Spanish Court.

[The_Sartorialist]

Somewhat of an extension rather than a revival of an old thread - but what are people's thoughts on a 2-roll-1? I haven't seen any yet, and wondered if it would look visually awkward?

[couch]

I suppose it would depend on the wearer's proportions and the cut of the coat, but in general I'd say no. A 3-roll-2 or -2.5 has the advantage of being able to place the working button at the optimum button-point relative to the wearer's waist. The (American) traditional 2-button (from mid-century on) placed the top button at this same point, leading to slightly longer lapels and more shirt shown, but still a reasonably classic ratio of chest to skirt around the button point. This style most often left (leaves) the lower button undone, and if the quarters were (are) fairly open sometimes unable to be buttoned.

If a 2-button is spaced like the "Duke's 2," with a button each above and below the waist, rolling to the lower button risks some pull lines as the horizontal tension will be greatest just at or above the hips and (except on portly figures) there will be less tension at the waist, which may tend to blouse. As others have said about the Kent DB that can roll to the lower button, the button stance must be very carefully chosen (a bit higher) to avoid this effect as well as to avoid creating the illusion of a protruding stomach.

If a 2-button is spaced with the lower button at the optimum midpoint, rolling through an upper button, my own view is that it would look unbalanced--indeed, it would probably look as though it were simply missing its third (lowest) button.

[mafoofan]

Short guys like me can benefit from the higher roll, as it raises the sight line, just like a higher rise trouser. Or at least it's my belief.

I've heard this, but I've also heard the opposite. As you know, I'm pretty short myself. In my personal experience, a high rolling lapel or high buttoning point (or worse, both combined) tend to make me look shorter by abbreviating the 'V' of my shirt and tie and creating a broader, more horizontal space across my torso.

[couch]

Short guys like me can benefit from the higher roll, as it raises the sight line, just like a higher rise trouser. Or at least it's my belief.

I've heard this, but I've also heard the opposite. As you know, I'm pretty short myself. In my personal experience, a high rolling lapel or high buttoning point (or worse, both combined) tend to make me look shorter by abbreviating the 'V' of my shirt and tie and creating a broader, more horizontal space across my torso.

I think this just shows the limitations of general rules about a single element. Overall height is only one of the proportions that must be balanced. There's leg vs. torso length, shoulder width vs. total height, midsection thickness vs. overall height, head size vs. torso size, etc. Most of us would probably say, given his wide head compared to his shoulder width, that Cary Grant's suits looked better on him once he adopted a more extended shoulder in the mid-'30s, even though many of us (myself included) might, in the abstract, prefer the look of the shoulder itself on his less extended and built-up suits circa 1930. Likewise the effect of button point and height of lapel roll on an individual will depend on the confluence of his body configurations. A high button point (assuming the shirt does not show beneath the buttoned coat) nearly always gives the impression of maximum leg length, and thus (other things being equal) of taller/slimmer proportions. If the wearer is relatively thick-waisted, has a large head compared to overall torso size, has relatively narrow shoulders, has unusually long arms, or other distinctions of figuration, it may well be that maximizing impression of leg length is less important than a longer lapel V, exposing more shirt, etc. For many people with such considerations, a one- or two-button jacket with an appropriately high button point offers a good balance between apparent leg length and a longer, more open lapel V than a three-button or 3-roll-2.5 can provide. Likewise the higher-buttoning Kent-style DB rolled to one, as the DoW showed.

[tteplitzmd]

Couch makes a good point about "rules." Anatomy is destiny. Perhaps it needs to be stated explicitly when trying to extrapolate from a poster's photo: your mileage may vary. I'm short with a prominent tummy. Any tailor, no matter how skilled, is limited to some degree by what I bring in the door. The better ones can hide or exploit, but that's about it.

[Costi]

Here is what a 2-roll-to-1 may look like:

Now for the details: this is, of course, not a "true" 2-roll-to-1 in the same way as a 3-roll-to-2. Rather, it is a "Windsor style" two-button coat - one above and one below the natural waistline. This style of coat is usually worn with both buttons buttoned, but if you ever fancy buttoning one only, it has to be the lower one (the top button is too high and makes the coat look like a bell). What with the soft construction of the coat, the spring in the cloth and the habit of never buttoning the top button, the lapels naturally rolled towards the bottom button.
It is probably only in such a context that a 2-roll-to-1 looks interesting, where the bottom button is not too low.

[couch]

It's also worth noting on the DoW pic posted by Costi that the quarters are quite severely cut away. The coat would look hopeless buttoned in this fashion were the quarters any more closed. We also do not see the Duke's full height in this photo, so one can't judge the degree to which this buttoning affects the overall proportions. Even as shown, in my view the look is not one of the Duke's best; more "maybe he can get away with it" than "there's a look to emulate."

[mafoofan]

This is tteplitzmd's 3-roll-2.75 converted to a 3-roll-2, plus a lower buttoning point, more open quarters, and slightly wider shoulders. I think the tweaks make a big difference without changing the fit of the jacket in any substantive way.

[tteplitzmd]

The updated Teplitz 3/2.75 model:



Physician healed thyself.

[mafoofan]

Terry, that looks a helluva lot better. Still, I'm not convinced you wouldn't be even better off doing 3-roll-2.

[mafoofan]

See, here it is converted to 3-roll-2: