The 3-Roll-2 Single Breasted Suit

[The_Sartorialist]

Greetings all,

Having been a reader / member (thank you, Alden) lurking in the dark depths of the cyberworld for long enough, I had initially intended to make my virgin contribution to this forum by posting pictures of my first bespoke suit made by a tailor in London. Alas, I have yet to receive the call from my tailor to inform me that the suit is ready for collection, so more of that anon.

It should perhaps be mentioned at the start, that the choice of my handle on the LL is more an aspiration, rather than a proclamation, since I'm certain I have far more to learn from the sartorial greats who frequent this board.

Moving on to the topic of this post, I would like to canvass your opinions on the '3-roll-2' (or its similar parlance) suit jacket. Subject to me being satisfied with my tailor's work on the aforementioned suit (which I am confident is to be more likely than not!), I am considering commissioning a second suit which will be a single-breasted with a '3-roll-2' jacket design, since I favour sartorial quirks and detailing, and wish to be a little different.

For those who are wondering, the suit will be worn primarily for work - and I'm a solicitor based in a city firm, and personally, I've never been one who conforms to conservative dress rules.

Thoughts and observations from all are most welcome, not forgetting the usual suspects like Alden and Costi!

*EDIT* Thought it might be helpful to provide an example of the "3-roll-2" courtesy of Scott Schuman of http://www.thesartorialist.com:

[alden]

Dear Sartorialist

It’s a great handle. As a fan of Scott Shuman’s work, it is very welcome here.

So much of what we wear, or more importantly how we dress, is influenced by feeling and instincts. In my own case, I fancy both the 3b and the 3 roll 2. My decision as to the choice between these two often follows the fabrics chosen. If the cloth is softer, I may prefer the traditional 3b knowing that in little time it will be rolling towards the 2 despite all my convictions to the contrary. If the cloth is very firm, I may choose to roll it straight away to 2.5.

The most practical consideration has to do with fabrics and the clothes made from same intended to keep me warm. If warmth is a consideration, I will by default choose the traditional 3B for its improved coverage on my chest. Being ill is a ridiculous, and often avoidable, nuisance.

Cheers

Michael Alden

[tteplitzmd]

3 Roll 2.75 SB is the Teplitz 3 button model. Soft cloth will inevitably migrate to the 2.5 position anyway. Short guys like me can benefit from the higher roll, as it raises the sight line, just like a higher rise trouser. Or at least it's my belief. Tailors often give you a 3 roll 3, or 3 roll 2, which is very disappointing, because by the time you are ready to cut the buttonholes the damage has been done. I've tried specifying that the roll be 1 1/2 to 2 inches below the top button. Sometimes that helps. I specify a distance of precisely 4 1/2 inches above and below the middle button.

[Costi]

In my opinion, the 3 roll to 2.5 looks its best when it suggests it COULD button all the way up. The lapels are manipulated from the collar seam and ironing so that they roll past - or, rather THROUGH - the top buttonhole. The idea is that the top buttonhole should be right in the roll, in a sagital plane with respect to the body and therefore visible from a side only, rather than higher in the lapel and lying flat against the body. The top buttonhole may be finished on both sides. If made this way, the 3 roll to 2.5 coat looks like a "normal" 3B coat whose lapels unrolled naturally towards the waist button, the top one being rarely used.
Stylistically, both the SB 3B roll to 2.5 and its DB counterpart (the Kent style, cut as a 6x2 or 4x2 with the lapel rolling through the waist buttohole towards the lower button) do to a coat what skillful polishing can do to new pair of brown shoes: it tricks the eye into perceiving signs of the coat (or shoes) being well-worn. This is why the effect, as with artificially creating a patina on a new shoe, should be subtle, looking as though it occured naturally.
This is not always easy to do for a tailor who may be used to breaking the line of the lapel more abruptly at the point where it rolls over, to create a deeper and fuller roll. Ideally you shouldn't see that on a 3B rolled to 2.5, so the roll has to flow more continously, but without being "dry" and skimpy.

[AndyM]

I have always struggled to understand the attraction of a 3-roll-2 (doubtless my loss), most of the ones I have seen seem too contrived. However Costi's explanation has enabled me to see the possibilities, I think I have simply not seen it well done, any photos of good examples please?

Andy

[Scot]

The three button coat that has rolled naturally to 2.5 looks very elegant, which I guess is why some get their tailors to fake the appearance in a newly constructed coat. I tried this for the first time recently but it was overdone so it has gone back; I simply do not like the appearance of a button hole on a lapel (apart from the one that should be there at the top )

So far everyone has been very diplomatic about the suit pictured, but really...

[tteplitzmd]

My experience is that unless the tailor really has experience with this roll, they can't/won't do it correctly. Note that in my model the roll is just below the hidden top button. Excuse the shirt/tie issues, and the "perspective" of the photographer.

[tteplitzmd]

This photo is with a very light worsted for comparison. Once the jacket is constructed you can't "change" the roll by any amount of pressing. Costi is correct on the construction aspect and the sagital plane (written like a radiologist).

[Costi]

Good examples, Dr. Teplitz!
Here are some more, with the roll varying from just under 3 to 2.5 and to 2.

[The_Sartorialist]

Thanks to all for their responses (and especially Costi, for the numerous pictures)!

Please excuse my ignorance, but would someone care to explain to me the subtle differences between the 3-roll-2.75, 3-roll-2.5 and 3-roll-2? Personally, I like the roll in the first and third pictures posted by Costi, and wondered what the correct description for such would be?

In any event, my initial post was motivated by simply a desire to have effectively a 2-button jacket with the added quirk of having a third buttonhole on the top, peeking through the lapel roll, and I seem to have ventured deeper into the abyss having seen some of the earlier responses.

Given my penchant for detail, I am inclined to opt for the top buttonhole to be stitched in a contrast coloured thread, without ever really caring to have the top buttonhole 'buttoned'(?). If so, then I may not even have my tailor sew the top third button. Would this amount to a sartorial faux pas?

[Costi]

The roll to ... indicates how low towards the second button the lapels roll: barely below the top buttonhole (as in the second picture I posted), midway between the third and the second buttonhole (pictures 3,4,5,6) or all the way to the second button (picture no. 1).
Sartorialist, why sew the top buttonhole with contrasting thread - do you need to make sure nobody misses it? Details that are there but are discreet are more interesting than those that are flashed in the eye. Here is an excellent read on the subject: http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =32&t=7322

[Bishop of Briggs]

The 3 roll 2 is appears to be an American style and more commonly found on "sack suits" with centre vents and "natural shoulders". I cannot recall ever seeing such a suit in the City or on an Englishman. It is likely that Savile Row firms only make them for their American customers, admittedly a large proportion of their business. It is not surprising that Anderson & Sheppard, with its looser fit and "soft" tailoring is particularly favoured by Americans. The house style is similar to a sack suit but with twin vents.

[Simon A]

..

[Greger]

In the first baste, of a three baste job, an inch or more can be added to the front edge so you can expriement with the shape of the front edge to see what looks best on you. Does the lapel look good on you lower or higher? How big should the roll be? Would the front edge look better if it started to roll out sooner than the lapel does? Where should the button button? Lower? Higher? Some people have been directed errantly to have a higher button stance than looks and works best on them. Bespoke is oportunity to find out before the garment is finished. Some details need to be finalized before the next stage, so if you error you are rightfully stuck with it (tailors can't undo a hugh amount of work that is your error of choice, unless you want to pay lots extra, and even then might have to start over). Full bespoke or semi mtm, where is the line?

[Costi]

Greger, there are two points I am not sure I understand in your post (besides relevance to the topic, but I've given up on that long ago):

Some people have been directed errantly to have a higher button stance than looks and works best on them.

Don't you think others have been directed errantly to have a lower buttoning point than looks and works best on them, too?

Some details need to be finalized before the next stage, so if you error you are rightfully stuck with it (tailors can't undo a hugh amount of work that is your error of choice, unless you want to pay lots extra, and even then might have to start over). Full bespoke or semi mtm, where is the line?

The old theory of sartorial relativism again. The line between bespoke and MTM is very clear from the outset, when the pattern is drafted, and throughout the making of the garment using artisanal or industrial methods. What's the point in perpetuating this confusion that there isn't much difference between bespoke and MTM? To suggest that, because a tailor might have to undo some work to accommodate a late change on a bespoke garment, he is emplyoing MTM methods (which, as Dopey well wrote in a recent post, is more like alteration work), seems far fetched to me.