Line / no line

[andreyb]

Gentlemen,

There are several excellent articles, written by Mr Alden, hailing virtues of a good line in trousers.

They made me think; moreover, I tried to assess my own trousers with respect to "line"... or lack of it.

Take a pair of flannels as an example:



Here I'm, standing straight, as if my boss called me.

Absolutely no line to speak of.



And here I'm again, bented my leg ever so slightly... and a line appeared. Surely, it is far from being an ideal one, but we at least are coming close.

Obviously, it's impossible to cut trousers in a way that provides a good line in both postures. Thus, my question: which of these two should demonstrate a good line? Also, is there something with cut of my trousers that can be changed in order to improve the line?

Andrey

[alden]

Andrey

I have edited your first photo to install a bit of line to the trousers. Do you see how the trousers have a kind of “cone” shape as opposed to two parallel lines? That is line.



Your trousers should wind up looking like these worn by F. Astaire:



Do you see the cone shape tapering from a full and ample cut at the waist and thighs down to a narrow measure at the cuff?

Stay tuned for pictures of the Ambrosi Heritage trouser unveiled last week in London.

Cheers

Michael

[Costi]

I agree with Michael. What you need is more fullness which, tapering gently and constantly toward the cuffs (which could be 22-23 cm with your silhouette - I think yours are a bit narrower than that), will atenuate the pulling effect of your protruding calves (as in Michael's photo editing) that breaks the line of the front crease. I have a similar issue with protruding calves and this type of cut works best to reduce the effect:




Don't forget that we are moving most of the time, so trousers should look AND FEEL good in a variety of positions. A crease here or there when standing in a position or another is not the issue. Fuller trousers feel and look more natural in most positions - look how nice Fred Astaire's trousers look, and they are not paper smooth at all. I have trousers that look perfect while standing still, but feel very uncomfortable and restrictive when walking - cutting for mannequins is not a tailor's job.
The line of trousers is fluid, they are cut to be comfortable in all positions - standing, walking, climbing stairs, tying your shoe laces, sitting down. Look at these AA (& al.) trousers - there is nothing "perfect" about them, they move naturally with the wearer and adapt to such movements:









If you want absolute perfection, here it is:

[Greger]

When legs are really narrow on trousers they need to be cut in the back part wider for the calf part of the leg. How much wider depends on how big the calfs are. The wider the trouser legs the less consideration until there is no need. Narrow pant legs and large calfs require a bigger curved cut on the back between knee and hem, which makes the seam lenght between the knee and hem two different lenghts front and back. One way to deal with this is a lot of stretching (on thin cloth, not as much can be stretched), or easing and shrinking, or some other method.

[ismailalmurtadza]

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I've been looking forward to this articles on trousers We here in Malaysia shows a lot of trousers when out in open tropical sun,leaving the suit jacket in the office when out for luanch,except at business luncheon meeting.
Eargerly awaiting pictures of the Ambrosi Heritage Trousers,even considering to ordering a pair if its going to be under the LL Bench MTM project.

Murtadza

[Gruto]

As Michael has pointed out (http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =32&t=9088), internet photos are quite tricky. A slightly different posture can have a big effect on the garment leading to conclusions that are difficult to reach in real life. Doesn't this pitfall apply to trousers' line more than anything else?

[andreyb]

Alden, Costi, Greger, thank you very much for all the answers! More food for though for me...

A follow-up question, if you don't mind: fuller cut trousers look quite neat with a jacket put on -- as the picture of Costi himself in a gray suit demonstrates. But how neat they look sans jacket? Is there any difference in cut of odd trousers that are planned to be worn mostly without a jacket? (I'm itching to name them "sports trousers", but this provokes too many unwanted associations...)

Andrey

[Costi]

Gruto, yes, absolutely, I agree with you. Trousers are fluid, to me. However, even if they don't hang perfectly straight because of posture, you can still tell if they are well cut.

A follow-up question, if you don't mind: fuller cut trousers look quite neat with a jacket put on -- as the picture of Costi himself in a gray suit demonstrates. But how neat they look sans jacket? Is there any difference in cut of odd trousers that are planned to be worn mostly without a jacket?

Andrey, here is your answer:

If you replace shirt, tie and shoes, do they look orphaned to you?
The only difference, in my mind, is that certain cloths (that are heavier and/or stiffer) look better as non-pleated trousers. My cords and moleskins are darted rather than pleated (one per leg), with a flat-looking front, but cut full on the thighs (though not as full as double pleated trousers) and with a high rise. And they can be worn with or without a jacket, as well.

[andreyb]

Costi, thank you for the additional pictures and explanation!

Now I'm starting to grasp... it is indeed not so easy to cut this kind of line elegantly. There are a plenty of full cut RTW trousers available, but they remain wide all the way down to the bottom.

Andrey

[alden]

Andrey

I am going to use an illustration Costi has recently posted as an example of a more cone shaped trouser.



This is the kind of thing I am looking for in the cut of my trousers...do you see the cone, as opposed to two parallel lines in the shape?

These trousers are worn with a high rise, full at the waist and thighs, tapering to an elegant measure at the cuff of the shoe. Look at the beauty of those pleats, knifing south from waist to cuff in a single and continuous line...splendid. I hope the latest version of my work with Sgr. Ambrosi will look like this when completed and photographed.

Here is another example:



Below is the contrary state, the modern cut of trousers as worn in Naples and many places in Italy these days. You will have to imagine these in worsted, linen or flannel, instead of denim.

The rise is low, belted on the lower hips. (There is nothing even faintly facetious in calling these coverings “hip huggers” as they do hug and remain strapped to the hips and buttocks.) The trousers are two constant parallel lines, in this case thin on top and thin down to the cuff with no taper. This is the “silo” or “lighthouse” effect.



Clearly this example does not flatter Gary Cooper’s tall, lean figure. (It might do well on a smaller man.) But you will have to convince Toto, the greatest of all Neapolitan dressers, to change his errant ways.



Cheers

M Alden

[zeitgeist]

I do not think a 'one silhouette for all' attempt at trouser silhouette homogeneity is a good idea at all.

[alden]

I do not think a 'one silhouette for all' attempt at trouser silhouette homogeneity is a good idea at all.

Absolutely my point and that is why the suggestion that there are different silhouettes, ways to make and wear trousers is important in the face of the hegemony of the “jeans” cut.

The 501 style is dominant because it is easily realized in industrial productions. And it is readily made in bespoke as well.

Fine tuning the balance of a trousers line in the cone shape I am trying to realize for “my” wardrobe, necessitates a good deal of time, numerous fittings and skill. It begins with the details of the cut itself. If the trousers are too ample at the waist and hips the line is top heavy. This is also true if the taper is too extreme or the circumference of the cuff too small on a well proportioned top.

Once you have the cut fine tuned, then you need to have it fit to your body correctly so the pleats fall as they should and the overall image is harmonious and balanced. Frankly speaking, it is a devilish thing to get right. I know all too well. There are quite a few experiments hanging in my closet.

If trousers were easy to get right we would see a lot of nice examples. As it is, I rarely see a cut of trouser that is inspiring these days. You will see many nice jackets and coats, but rarely an elegant trouser to match.

I enjoy meeting trouser makers and seeing their work. Rarely are they challenged to make anything but jeans these days, many have forgotten any other silhouette, and that is a real shame. My current research leads me to a trouser maker hidden away far from the Row, and to a few bespoke trouser makers in Naples that I will be working with as well. Stay tuned…

Cheers

Michael

[Costi]

Michael, in my experience with tailors, successful trouser making works much like Beau Brummel was said to have chosen his tie for the day: if the knot didn't come out right the first time, he would try again with another tie. I didn't understand how good trousers were made until I met a tailor who made me smile with satisfaction the first time I gazed upon his work in a mirror - and there had been no fitting whatsoever and I was a new client. With all other tailors, I went through the frustrating process you describe of tuning and modifying and recutting and trying again and again, until you reach a point where you'd rather leave the pattern and trousers as they are, in a precarious equilibrium, lest everything should be thrown out of balance again if you made another change. It is the difference between building a solid stone wall, planned and made well from the outset by a master, and building a house of cards: try to move one and everything falls down.

[uppercase]

No discussion would be complete about getting trouser line right without consideration of
-cloth weight and
-weave