The Raglan

[Gruto]

Should it carry hidden buttons or visible front buttons? I like the LL BTM Raglan but the visible buttons have something which make the look less formal and easy going.

[Des Esseintes]

Gruto

would not a Raglan coat be closer to the less formal end of coats, anyway? I guess the fact that no proper formal dress ever features Raglan sleeves, not even Thom Browne's so far, would make me think this kind of sleeve treatment should be considered an informal detail. Hence, visible front buttons would be appropriate for a Raglan coat, no?

dE

PS: I don't like Raglan anyway... I am too formal, I've been told!

[Gruto]

this kind of sleeve treatment should be considered an informal detail. Hence, visible front buttons would be appropriate for a Raglan coat, no?

That's how I feel about it too. The informal cut of the Raglan and the sleeves makes visible front buttons a natural choice. However, I still like the LL style with hidden buttons.

[alden]

Gruto

Not a surprise that that Raglan coat is nothing short of horrid.

It has a reversible collar as opposed to a ghillie collar!

It carries flap pockets instead of slash pockets.

And as you have pointed out, the showing buttons do the coat no favors.

This was a botched attempt to make an Ulster coat with a Raglan sleeve.

Cheers

Michael

[Des Esseintes]

Gruto

Not a surprise that that Raglan coat is nothing short of horrid. ...

This was a botched attempt to make an Ulster coat with a Raglan sleeve.

Come on Michael, stop fishing for compliments... If you're so horrified by the coat, I will take it off you before you take it to Oxfam!

dE

[S. Gillette]

As far as I know, a raglan coat is not per se of informal character. Don't formal coats (for wear with white tie ensembles) have raglan sleeves?

[Gruto]

As far as I know, a raglan coat is not per se of informal character. Don't formal coats (for wear with white tie ensembles) have raglan sleeves?

S. Gilette, you have a point. Maybe the informal character comes from the roomy cut and the countrified colours rather than the raglan sleeves

[NES]

I think the raglan is informal because of the raglan sleeve. That is what defines its style. The roomy cut and the colours just go with it. We can see it worn with formal evening dress in illustrations from the thirties but I don't think it should be considered correct. At best it would be a form of sprezzatura.

[alden]

In the 1930s, things like Polo coats were made with a Raglan sleeve and there is a marvelous photo of N Coward wearing one on the LL.

I have seen an AA illustration showing a Raglan being worn for formal wear but other than that drawing I mainly have seen set sleeve coats with capes worn in the golden era (not Raglans, though they look similar.)



A Raglan is informalissimo. It should be used, in my humble opinion, on full length country coats exclusively. I do not think it works at all well on 3/4 coats or on the Chrysalis type English shooting coats. That is why I made my own 3/4 with a set sleeve. The Raglan needs length for its line to be agreeable to the eye.

Cheers

M Alden

[marcelo]

In the 1930s, things like Polo coats were made with a Raglan sleeve and there is a marvelous photo of N Coward wearing one on the LL.

I have seen an AA illustration showing a Raglan being worn for formal wear but other than that drawing I mainly have seen set sleeve coats with capes worn in the golden era (not Raglans, though they look similar.)

M Alden

Is this the AA illustration you had in mind? The AA text says that that coat was "destined to achieve the popularity that the old Inverness cape once had". - I think the editors were trying to set a fashion which never really took off.




That's Basil Rathbone as Sherlock in the previous photo. - I cant' remember if it was in "The secret weapon" or "The woman in green"

[Costi]

You have a good digital library, Marcelo!
I agree it looks quite inappropriate as eveningwear and much better for this:

As in the Sherlock still above, the buttons show.
I think the typical Raglan Overcoat is full length, has a gillie collar, slash pockets and a front fly covering the buttons (mostly as protection against wind and humidity, rather than as a formal element - much like on a Covert coat).
There is also a less rustic peak lapel overcoat with a Raglan SLEEVE (so not really a true Raglan Overcoat) that may very well take show through buttons.

Beyond that there are countless variations (knee long overcoats, 3/4 coats, patch pockets) that may look good or bad and need to be judged one by one.

[marcelo]

Thanks for this, Costi. Indeed, it is exactly what James Mason is doing in Shooting Party. But with a DB Raglan. What do you think of this combination?

James Mason and John Gielgud


The very same coat can be seen in movement in this Youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYq0pHDagaQ

[marcelo]

I agree it looks quite inappropriate as eveningwear ...

Apart from the AA illustration, the only other image I have seen of a raglan coat as evening wear stems from the 1997 TV adaptation of Anthony Powell’s Dance to the Music of Time. There is a scene where Widmerpool (Simon Beale, on the left) is seen wearing a raglan coat over his white tie.



The interesting thing about this is that right at the outset of the story (both in the book and in the film) Widmerpool is referred to as a person famous for his sartorial blunders. He is so awkward in this regard that his companions come to refer to whatever garment or accessory they consider inappropriate as a "Widmerpool tie", a "Widmerpool coat", etc. This scan is an excerpt from page 4 of Powell’s 12-volume story:



I do not know if the custom designers had this in mind when they chose that coat in the scene above, but I think it would be correct to say that a raglan evening dress would be a further example of a "Widmerpool" coat.

[le.gentleman]

Great discussion!
So far, I have only seen a Balmaccan Raglan evening overcoat in person. This garment was SB with 3 hidden buttons and had a Ghillie collar as well as cuffs with a silk facing. Other than that, I have seen a Raglan cut on formal-, less formal country and rain-/trench coats. Generally, I am not a huge fan of the Raglan look especially not in combination with a Ghillie collar (no offense Michael) but the evening Raglan looked pleasing to me.
In Germany, the Balmacaan,was one of the successors of the Havelock and unlike the latter not just appropriate for white tie but also for black tie occasions.

Marcelo, here are two German illustrations of evening raglans from the 50ies:

[alden]

Generally, I am not a huge fan of the Raglan look especially not in combination with a Ghillie collar (no offense Michael)

The Ghillie or "storm" collar has the great advantage in bad weather of being buttoned all the way to the top with instant protection to the neck and sides of the head. This is probably one of the reasons it is often used in foul weather, rain and real country gear. You might call it form following function.

I know little about about German fashion though I have always liked the Tyrolean lodens that are normally made as ghille collared Raglans. A few trips to Vienna or Salzburg will normally win you over to the style.

I have only recently become a fan of the Raglan myself thanks to my Sicilian tailor who makes exceptional ones. I hope to acquire a piece of the wonderful 1000 gms Schladminger loden some day to have a Raglan made. It would be an Austrian cousin to the 1000 gms whipcord covert coat that is chomping on the bit in my closet waiting for some frosty and inclement weather. It will come.

But 1000 gms cloth is apparently not enough out East as I have seen and felt the 1400 gms gray overcoating ordered every season by a famous Viennese tailor. Now that is heavyweight material!

Cheers

Michael