Dinner Jacket (Midnight blue or Black)

[aldo]

Dear people of TLL, This is my first post. i am having a dinner suit made and have been advised that the darkest of midnight blue's can look blacker than black and in fact gives a richer black in photos. Can anyone provide any advice or even better photographic evidence. Any help much appreciated. Aldo

[Jordan Marc]

Aldo:

That's quite true. A midnight blue dinner suit reads blacker than its black counterpart, which has a faint yellowish tinge to its fabric under incandescent lighting indoors. To punch up the color of the respective dinner suits depends upon the choice of lapel and waistcoat facing as well as the single stripes on the outer seams of the trousers. For a midnight blue tux some like navy blue silk satin, while others prefer navy blue silk faille. For a black tux, some like black silk satin, while others like black silk faille. Whatever the color, choose high-gorge peak lapels on your jacket, never notched, and two bow-ties of satin or faille should be ordered to match the facings of your dinner suit. Over-the-calf length hosiery should be made of navy or black silk. If you prefer to wear pumps, black patent is the best choice with pinched or flat bows. If you prefer the classic plain-toe lace-ups, choose black patent.

How many dinner suits should you have in your wardrobe? Ideally two. Make your midnight blue dinner suit a six-button double-breasted
two-piece suit for stand-up festive occasions. Make your black dinner suit a one-button single-breasted three-piece suit for theatre and opera galas and supper afterwards.

JMB

[Costi]

Dear Aldo,

Welcome to the club!
Here are some pictures illustrating midnight blue eveningwear (the styling in some is less than ideal) to go with the good and comprehensive advice Jordan Marc offered you:

(here you have both black - standing - and midngiht blue - seated)





(midnight blue trousers look better than black when worn with ivory or off-white dinner coat for summer)

And here is some reading material, inside the LL: http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... f=32&t=244 and outside: http://www.blacktieguide.com.

I can't say whether my midnight blue dinner suit looks more BLACK than black, but the colour does look richer and deeper than most blacks. If you see it alone, you can swear it is black. If you see it next to black, you notice the blue tinge. When I had it made I found a midnight blue silk duchesse for the lapels and braid, but black silk is just as good (see the Duke of Windsor's tails).

How often and in what type of social context do you expect to wear your dinner suit? Is it going to be your only one?

[aldo]

Thanks very much for the advice. I am receiving some samples of cloth tomorrow, 3 black 3 midnight blue, some Barathea and one is a wool mohair mix from both (Smiths and Holland & Sherry). I have decided smooth black satin for the lapels. So the real decision will be the black or M-blue. Still not sure. It will be my only dinner suit and it will be expensive... so i need to make the right decision. Style wise i have decided on single breasted one button, with peaked lapels, however i really like the look of this (see link below) which i found on the website you recommended me. Are these horizontal lapels ? http://www.blacktieguide.com/Classic_Co ... tuxedo.jpg

[Costi]

Those are peak lapels, with a very high gorge and shallow angle.
The SB peak lapel dinner coat is the cut that tends most towards formality. If formality is what you want in a dinner suit, you may as well have it in black barathea. You won't be making a mistake for sure.
The shawl collar coat is the least formal and that's where I think midnight blue works best. SB with a waistcoat or DB sans waistcoat (see the Duke of Kent above), worn with a plain front or pleated turndown collar shirt, the midnight blue dinner suit is, in my view, a step down in formality from black. The dinner suit itself is, after all, an INformal alternative and, even today when it is for most people at the top of formality, I would not dress it UP with white pique waistcoats or wing-collar shirts (I know it was done in the past and it is done today - this is just my preference).

[aldo]

Thanks all, visited my tailor yesterday and finally decided on the Smith 10/11oz black wool Barathea. Although i did ask him to see if he can find the same fabric in maybe 11/12oz or 12/13oz. Do you think i am going too heavy? I will be wearing the suit for my wedding as well as other dinner functions. The main choice for not going for the Midnight Barathea was that i didn't want to stand out from other quests wearing black tie in my wedding photos. If the suit was just for evening functions i would maybe have gone for the M-Blue. Other fabric which i thought was stunning but a little too flash for me was a Holland and Sherry mohair / wool mix barathea (see example of tux in Kilgour window Savile Row) very elastic and great feel but was worried it would shine a little too much in the photos. I hope i have made the correct choice with the black, keep wanting to phone the tailor to go for the M-Blue. Thanks Again..

[Concordia]

Black barathea is as close to "by the book" as you can get. It will also look much blacker than most worsteds.

No need to go for the heavier weight-- 10/11 should be fine for most of what you need. It will look good and not be too light-weight, except perhaps for quiet dinners in Scottish castles.

[alden]

finally decided on the Smith 10/11oz black wool Barathea

Excellent choice.

I have the 13 ozs Smiths black Barathea for my dinner suit. But the 10/11 is probably a better choice. Silk facing and the lot will make your coat heavy as it is...

Cheers

Michael Alden

[aldo]

Thanks for your support, i think i will stick with that then. I am leaving the general styling to the tailor, i told him 4x1 with peak lapels (but not too peaked) and i will leave the rest to him. He has a natural applied (Italian hand stiched) style to all his suits so i wouldn't want to detract him from that. He is an older Italian Tailor who has worked from Savile Row for many years so it will be interesting to see the finished suit.

[tweed_for_me]

Hello

Well, interesting. You are making just what I am thinking about to.

Hope to hear from you how the proses is going.

Good luck

[radicaldog]

I also prefer black for dinner suits. In a sense the dinner suit is a uniform, so you don't want it to stand out and look 'blacker' than that of the men around you. For formal wear rigour is more important than beauty.

[culverwood]

In a sense it is a uniform but it is not a uniform.

Within a reasonably well defined dress code, which the dinner suit is, one can produce quite a variety of clothing given the different materials, styles, accessories and shapes of the wearer. It is not and never has been like a uniform where all will have bought their clothing in the same material and of the same design probably from an approved tailor or supplier.

[carl browne]

Interesting thread:

It has always seemed a little odd to me that dinner jackets should traditionally be made of hard-worsted cloth, weather midnight blue or black, both of which tend to have a slight sheen to them in bright artificial light. In this case, I do tend to think the blue may look darker, and I regret that my black barathea is not blue. However, if one is looking for a cloth that will look as dark as possible, why not try one with a more napped surface? True woollen flannel might not be quite right, but what about a worsted one? I think the key would be to find something that has a completely unrefelective, dead-matte finish, but retains some of the crispness and crease-resistance of the harder worsteds. This seems completely appropriate to me considering these things are mostly worn in the cooler months.

Comments?

[radicaldog]

In a sense it is a uniform but it is not a uniform.

Within a reasonably well defined dress code, which the dinner suit is, one can produce quite a variety of clothing given the different materials, styles, accessories and shapes of the wearer. It is not and never has been like a uniform where all will have bought their clothing in the same material and of the same design probably from an approved tailor or supplier.

Of course. Saying that it was a uniform was just hyperbole. What it meant is that there are stricter rules and a narrower range of acceptable options when it comes to formal wear. Moreover, formal wear tends to be worn in special occasions, thus the emphasis should be more on rigour than on beauty.

[radicaldog]

Interesting thread:

It has always seemed a little odd to me that dinner jackets should traditionally be made of hard-worsted cloth, weather midnight blue or black, both of which tend to have a slight sheen to them in bright artificial light. In this case, I do tend to think the blue may look darker, and I regret that my black barathea is not blue. However, if one is looking for a cloth that will look as dark as possible, why not try one with a more napped surface? True woollen flannel might not be quite right, but what about a worsted one? I think the key would be to find something that has a completely unrefelective, dead-matte finish, but retains some of the crispness and crease-resistance of the harder worsteds. This seems completely appropriate to me considering these things are mostly worn in the cooler months.

Comments?

Interesting. As I recall, my father's winter formal uniform (Italian Army officer) was made (bespoke, in the 1970s) in a very matte cloth. I'll see if I can figure out what it is on my next visit to my parents.