Why is it that two men can go to the same tailor, and yet get such different results, one sharp, the other bleh?
UC
One tailor, two results
Customer input may improve or ruin the result of a craftsman's work, depending on the former's taste and the latter's skill.
Some tailors follow customer indications very closely, even if they don't agree. Others say "yes, Sir, we'll do our best" and then do what they know they should do, taking the risk of being rebuked by the customer, but making sure what goes out their door will never make them blush.
With large tailoring houses, it may well be that a different cutter and/or tailor(s) work for different clients, so the clothes are not actually made by the same hands.
I visit my tailor, shirtmaker and shoemaker often - even when there is no fitting or delivery or new commission involved. I like to pop in when I am in their neighbourhood, chat for a few minutes if they are not busy, ask for an opinion on an idea I have been thinking about, plan something new - and, most often, listen to stories. All of them are meticulous craftsmen who, in general, do their best to please the customer and deliver good quality work. However, all of them have stories of a common character: the jinx. It's not that they hide their incompetence or negligence behind bad luck.
The jinx is usually a very demanding customer, but not always one who knows very well what he is talking about. He doesn't quite understand how things are done, so his requirements are often conflicting or impossible to fulfill. The jinx is a moving target: he gets his confuse indications all mixed up and then, because he won't admit to being wrong, changes his mind and blames the craftsman for getting it wrong. The more you try to please the jinx, the worse your work turns out. Even when he is not present, the curse of the jinx follows the craftsman who makes unexplainable errors or no longer uses his judgment to evaluate the customer's demands and produces poor quality work. Abyssus abyssum invocat, so misfortunes never come alone in these cases - it is a chain that seem to have no other explanation than a curse. The jinx is always unhappy with the result, but, to cap it all, not enough so as not to place a new order. It is a craftsman's worst nightmare.
Some tailors follow customer indications very closely, even if they don't agree. Others say "yes, Sir, we'll do our best" and then do what they know they should do, taking the risk of being rebuked by the customer, but making sure what goes out their door will never make them blush.
With large tailoring houses, it may well be that a different cutter and/or tailor(s) work for different clients, so the clothes are not actually made by the same hands.
I visit my tailor, shirtmaker and shoemaker often - even when there is no fitting or delivery or new commission involved. I like to pop in when I am in their neighbourhood, chat for a few minutes if they are not busy, ask for an opinion on an idea I have been thinking about, plan something new - and, most often, listen to stories. All of them are meticulous craftsmen who, in general, do their best to please the customer and deliver good quality work. However, all of them have stories of a common character: the jinx. It's not that they hide their incompetence or negligence behind bad luck.
The jinx is usually a very demanding customer, but not always one who knows very well what he is talking about. He doesn't quite understand how things are done, so his requirements are often conflicting or impossible to fulfill. The jinx is a moving target: he gets his confuse indications all mixed up and then, because he won't admit to being wrong, changes his mind and blames the craftsman for getting it wrong. The more you try to please the jinx, the worse your work turns out. Even when he is not present, the curse of the jinx follows the craftsman who makes unexplainable errors or no longer uses his judgment to evaluate the customer's demands and produces poor quality work. Abyssus abyssum invocat, so misfortunes never come alone in these cases - it is a chain that seem to have no other explanation than a curse. The jinx is always unhappy with the result, but, to cap it all, not enough so as not to place a new order. It is a craftsman's worst nightmare.
I agree a lot with Costi , and I would say that my experience is "one tailor many different results " ... As it was mentioned in a an older thread (which I can not remember now ) by Michael we can not see an elegant result as a linear procedure that sums up its parts ..The tailor + the cloth + the client + the design ..Obviously it is a lot more than that because the Relationship between all the above at any given time of the process (not procedure) is what creates the end result ... I too pass regularly from my tailor and shirtmaker (I don't have a shoemaker in Greece cause there is none ) and my tailor tells me many stories with clients that did or didn't go well .I have different results with him too .. !! It all come down to the relationship you have with all the above ... how do we interact with the craftsmen and the garments and how do we build on the design and how can we make sure that we pass our enthusiastic ideas across to the person who will, with our assistance make them in to a coat or whatever else ..How much effort do we put in to this..in to the relationship ! The result is interacted, interrelated, interdependent, in mutual equal transaction at any given time with all the above components that create a whole many time larger(different) than the sum of it's parts .. Such an amazing process ..!!!
Regards
Vassilis
Regards
Vassilis
The man makes the clothes, the clothes do not make the man.Why is it that two men can go to the same tailor, and yet get such different results, one sharp, the other bleh?
I would also say that in certain places, Italy as an example, a tailoring house will have "A" and "B" clients. The good clients get A treatment, the others get what's left. The A team gets the best cutter, tailors and time. The B group gets what's left. The same thing can happen on SR but its relatively rare.
Costi and Yialabis have introduced another question in their replies: how is it that one customer will get different results from one tailor?
There are many potential explanations for this phenomenon and Yialabis has hit on many good points.
Costi's "jinx" customer exists in every country of the world and is a plague on artisans and a nuisance for all of us.
Cheers
M Alden
Indeed, this is the best explanation!alden wrote:The man makes the clothes, the clothes do not make the man.
As far as the bespoke tailoring process is concerned (I like your distinction, Vassilis, it is not a procedure), I think the day it gets ISO certified is the day it dies. Failures of various degrees are an intrinsic part of the process, they are the reverse of the medal. Standardization excludes 99.99% of failures, but it excludes excellence as well.
Balzac writes at the beginning of "The Illustrious Gaudissart": "Our century will bridge the age of isolated force, rich in original creations, and the era of the homogenous but levelling force, cranking out uniform products, pouring them out in massive quantities and subjecting them to a unitary thinking, the ultimate expression of social organization". (Excuse the clumsy translation)
How visionary did that prove to be?
As long as a product is made mostly by hand, even if the same (experienced) hands are involved every time, results are bound to vary: they are a function of weather, of what the cutter had for breakfast, of what brand of beer the tailor drinks at work (don't tell me yours drinks tap water!), of how well the seamstress slept the night before.
Fittings are a good means to keep things in check and make alterations on the way. Sometimes even after a garment is finished it is still possible to make certain changes. Sometimes it takes a complete remake and an honest artisans doesn't even wait for the customer to suggest it.
I think we all have failures in our wardrobes and some time ago I did suggest starting a thread with pictures of such instances. There is as much to be learned from mishaps as there is from our sartorial successes.
Ahh...Alden, ever the hard headed pragmatist. A and B clients? Maybe we are getting at something here....alden wrote:The man makes the clothes, the clothes do not make the man.Why is it that two men can go to the same tailor, and yet get such different results, one sharp, the other bleh?
I would also say that in certain places, Italy as an example, a tailoring house will have "A" and "B" clients. The good clients get A treatment, the others get what's left. The A team gets the best cutter, tailors and time. The B group gets what's left. The same thing can happen on SR but its relatively rare.
M Alden
How do I get on the A team?
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tteplitzmd
"How do I get on the A team?" asks Uppercase.
In the United States, there is a saying: "Everyone knows Mr. Green." It translates well in all languages, in my experience.
In the United States, there is a saying: "Everyone knows Mr. Green." It translates well in all languages, in my experience.
Some tailors will wait and see if you are real, a serious customer who will purchase on a regular basis and wants a long term relationship. If you are, they will invest time in you. If they think you are a one timer, lookie loo, or just curious, they will give you some clothes from the B team. It is a bit counter-intuitive but it happens. And it is not a question of how much you spend, but that you return, that you become a regular.How do I get on the A team?
And its not an uncommon phenomenon in S Europe. Many times when you go to a restaurant for the first time, you can be treated with diffidence. When you go back the third or fourth time to the same place, you are treated like family; it is one extreme to the other.
Michael
Most of the men who use Mr. Green's influence exclusively usually wind up looking like Mr. Brown. It takes a bit more than greenery to make a beautiful and bountiful garden.In the United States, there is a saying: "Everyone knows Mr. Green."
Michael
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tteplitzmd
Let me amend my comment. I think a lot people who use Mr. Green believe they are buying access to or getting the A Team treatment. Their perception is that money buys a better experience and outcome. I think it often can give the former (subjectively), but not at all a guarantee for a favorable outcome. Your mileage may vary in other words.alden wrote:Most of the men who use Mr. Green's influence exclusively usually wind up looking like Mr. Brown. It takes a bit more than greenery to make a beautiful and bountiful garden.In the United States, there is a saying: "Everyone knows Mr. Green."
Michael
There is nice short story from a set sharing a Medieval character of the Orient called Nastratin Hodja (the spelling varies with the country). He once went to the hammam in a town away from home. The attendants threw him an old, dirty rag for a towel and left him all alone, without any assistance. He took the bath and, upon leaving, paid a golden coin. The attendants bowed before him and couldn't stop thanking. Next day our Hodja returned to the hammam - this time the attendants gave him the best, new, white towels and first class service. As he left, he threw behind a worthless copper coin. The attendants cried: "Hodja, if you paid a golden coin for yesterday's torn towels, how do you expect us to accept a small copper coin for the first rate service we gave you today?!". Nastratin answered calmly: "Yesterday's payment was for today's service. And viceversa!"alden wrote:And its not an uncommon phenomenon in S Europe. Many times when you go to a restaurant for the first time, you can be treated with diffidence. When you go back the third or fourth time to the same place, you are treated like family; it is one extreme to the other.
Of course, you can only try this once with any given hammam!
Speaking of Turkish baths, I like Penhaligon's Hammam, first made in 1872.
As the advertising copy reads: "Heady and glamorous, Hammam Bouquet is evocative of the Edwardian era of decadence and excess" , made from jasmine at twice the price of gold.
http://www.penhaligons.co.uk/shop/fragr ... y_code=USD
I am all for decadence and excess and support all such endeavours whenever I can.
On the other matter, I will now attempt to stay on my tailor's good side by having something made at least once a year. That should be enough, I should think.
I mean, there's a limit as to the amount of clothes one wants, isn't there?!
As the advertising copy reads: "Heady and glamorous, Hammam Bouquet is evocative of the Edwardian era of decadence and excess" , made from jasmine at twice the price of gold.
http://www.penhaligons.co.uk/shop/fragr ... y_code=USD
I am all for decadence and excess and support all such endeavours whenever I can.
On the other matter, I will now attempt to stay on my tailor's good side by having something made at least once a year. That should be enough, I should think.
I mean, there's a limit as to the amount of clothes one wants, isn't there?!
I find Hammam Bouquet intoxicating, but I do enjoy wearing their other bouquet. If you want something that sends your nostrils tingling with decadence and excess, you may have to go further back in time: try SMN's Marescialla, 1828.
If you are in no hurry...uppercase wrote:On the other matter, I will now attempt to stay on my tailor's good side by having something made at least once a year. That should be enough, I should think.
Now that the hammam word has been used ...
One of the pleasures of visiting a new city is to seek out and visit the local hammam. From personal experience I can recommend the Madrid hammam and New York's Russian and Turkish baths (not exactly a hammam I know). Istanbul is of course full of great places. I have also heard good things about the baths attached to the Paris mosque, but haven't yet visited them myself.
What hammams around the world would other members recommend?
One of the pleasures of visiting a new city is to seek out and visit the local hammam. From personal experience I can recommend the Madrid hammam and New York's Russian and Turkish baths (not exactly a hammam I know). Istanbul is of course full of great places. I have also heard good things about the baths attached to the Paris mosque, but haven't yet visited them myself.
What hammams around the world would other members recommend?
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