Velvet Collar

[storeynicholas]

If we weren't interested in fine things, this site wouldn't exist and if fine things were not perceptibly different from RTW etc, then the bespoke makers left would as well all retire. This is a given is it not? For my part, I'm just saying don't over-egg the pudding.

[shredder]

I sense that there might be some semantic issues simmering here even though people seem to be broadly in agreement. I think there needs to be a distinction made between the following:

1) Characteristics detectable only by those sufficiently knowledgeable and therefore makes the given example stand out despite the subtlety that those less knowledgeable or interested will not notice, aka, a classically detailed suit that screams bespoke but is indistinguishable, for the uninitiated, from that worn by the first-year insurance salesman sitting across the isle on the southbound Northern Line;

and

Characteristics that even a woman would notice.

2) The opportunity to determine, if desired or interested, every detailed aspect in order to realise a garment that one wants;

and

Incorporating details purely for the sake of making some sort of a 'statement.'

[Jordan Marc]

Gentlemen,

The most sensible response to a compliment you receive on your attire, whether genuinely appreciative or thinly veiled sarcasm, is a slight smile and a simple thank you. Keep the names of your tailors and makers of your accessories to yourself. If you sense the 'compliment' is demeaning, stay the course. Nobody likes a smartass; and if you're unwilling to play his or her game, it's game over before it ever starts.

JMB

[Costi]

Thank for a compliment? Never!

Dear Greger,

I think there is a great difference between being noticed because you look good (and it's even better if one can't tell why exactly that is so) and being noticed for TRYING to get noticed. One can't help the former, and should avoid the latter, in my view.
Since you have not yet answered my invitation to use an image to illustrate what you mean, I will make a start. I think the distinction explained above is excellently illustrated by these two ladies here:



You must agree that Carla Bruni, despite being dressed with "gray't" economy of means, does get noticed. So does Mme la Duchesse, doesn't she

[alden]

Costi,

In one word: merveilleux or should it be merveilleuse?

Michael

[Costi]

Thank for a compliment? Never!

Mais vous etes incroyable!

La merveilleuse c'est la Duchesse. L'autre c'est l'elegante, non?

[Gruto]

Talking about the velvet collar, I thought it was interresting to discover that they didn't agree about it in 1837 neither

[Greger]

I think there is a great difference between being noticed because you look good (and it's even better if one can't tell why exactly that is so) and being noticed for TRYING to get noticed. One can't help the former, and should avoid the latter, in my view.

There are other drummers with good beats, too. Some have a good beat, but they are not good at it. Some beats I don't care for, either.

Comsumers and makers think a bit different. Craftsmanship is art. The various arts of tailoring developed over hundreds of years. Some have died out. I like it when a tailor shows his art skills, and some of it really stands out. Have you ever seen a sleeve pressed on a sleeve roll? Instead of 2-D it is 3-d. It is much easier to press on the flat and tell the customer, "This is good." It also takes less skill doing flat. Dimenions of the human body, shoulder width, head size, neck height or thickness, waist level, hips and so on. When a expert takes all of that, puts it together, it really stands out. When customers mess with it they can really reduce the quality of the garment or suit. Like architecture, it is about art and some customers ask to change this and that, till it is no longer art. This one house was painted a certain way. It brought out all the good futures. Somebody repainted the house and it looks bloring. Most other houses there is no way to paint them that really could enhance them even close to this one. One tailor says that a good press job is like puting a good paint job on a house- it brings out its good futures and hide blemishes. Some people claim the golden rectangle is better. TRYING to get noticed is different than TRYING to show people better skills. In the old days the upperclass wore bespoke tailored. Trying to blend into that is way different than trying to blend into the lowerclasses, rtw and m2m. The upperclass didn't hang around the lowerclasses, so didn't try to blend in with them. Today the majority of the upperclass don't wear bespoke tailored- it's a different world. TRYING to get noticed and wearing quality are two different things, and both can stand out, and sometimes should.

[zeitgeist]

Thank for a compliment? Never!

Dear Greger,

I think there is a great difference between being noticed because you look good (and it's even better if one can't tell why exactly that is so) and being noticed for TRYING to get noticed. One can't help the former, and should avoid the latter, in my view.
Since you have not yet answered my invitation to use an image to illustrate what you mean, I will make a start. I think the distinction explained above is excellently illustrated by these two ladies here:



You must agree that Carla Bruni, despite being dressed with "gray't" economy of means, does get noticed. So does Mme la Duchesse, doesn't she

I am sorry, but this is a ridiculous/poor example. A textbook example of stacking the deck in your favour in order to make a "point".

[Costi]

Greger,

I have no problem with quality and skill, on the contrary. However, they do not serve any purpose in themselves as far dressing is concerned - if they are not channeled with taste, they can produce dreadful clothes artfully crafted of excellent materials. I am not a mannequin, a walking advertisement displaying how many features my tailor can put on a single coat. Spices are best used with moderation, without mixing them up just because you have them at hand.
From my experience, many artisans appreciate simplicity and have no need for unusual features to show off their skills. Because of its simple and pure line, a Mozart sonata is no easier to play well than a virtuoso Paganini cadenza for violin. And the one you'll find yourself whistling next day is the Mozart tune.

Here is the "upperclass" exquisitely dressed with taste and simplicity:

No bells, no whistles, no frills. Quality materials and tailoring? Yes, please. Skilled craftsmanship? Plenty of it showing (but it doesn't hurt the eye). Tasteful and subtle innovation? Yes, even that - take the suede shoes!

[Costi]

I am sorry, but this is a ridiculous/poor example. A textbook example of stacking the deck in your favour in order to make a "point".

I don't see why, but if you say so...

Here is another ridiculous and poor example, plus it is stolen from another post:



The same play and scene, different cast.

[zeitgeist]

I am sorry, but this is a ridiculous/poor example. A textbook example of stacking the deck in your favour in order to make a "point".

I don't see why, but if you say so...

Here is another ridiculous and poor example, plus it is stolen from another post:



The same play and scene, different cast.

This is much better. I was unconvinced about the comparison of a younger attractive woman in her prime to a much older, much frumpier woman.

I believe I have 'laid it on a little thick' in my original post, and would like to apologise for that. I meant no offence or disrespect.

I would agree with the assessment that radicaldog's curious statement about having necessarily 'overdone' something when complimented is more a statement of his temperament than anything else. Some men are born to stand out, others to blend in.

Greger, I think you may have developed your 'eye' through your own life experiences to see through the 'noise' and evaluate a suit solely on the merits of its craftsmanship. Like a gourmand who can pick out saffron in a blindingly hot curry. Or an architect/preservationist who can see past a ruined facade and bring to life in his mind's eye past glories. I do not think it is a state of mind that applies to more than a very select few, let alone most, people.

[Costi]

Zeitgeist, no need to apologize, I took it as it came...
I didn't want to anticipate your objections, but certainly a man who can see beyond a ruined facade can bring to life in his mind's eye past glories. If there are any

Do you think this is any better?:

To me, it doesn't make much difference.

How about if we replace Bruni with Chanel? I hope the fact she died a Mademoiselle won't be an objection


By the way, Carla Bruni is 42 years old... Although the Duchess IS 20 years older, Bruni LOOKS young and attractive rather than being a girl. Perhaps her taste in the way she dresses plays a part, too?

[Greger]

Greger, I think you may have developed your 'eye' through your own life experiences to see through the 'noise' and evaluate a suit solely on the merits of its craftsmanship. Like a gourmand who can pick out saffron in a blindingly hot curry. Or an architect/preservationist who can see past a ruined facade and bring to life in his mind's eye past glories. I do not think it is a state of mind that applies to more than a very select few, let alone most, people.

You got it right. And, then, as you said, too, some are born to stand out in whatever way they do (while others shouldn't stand out as they do).

Costi, like food, all the details of cooking matter. Throwing in all the spices won't work. Each ingredient needs to be cooked to a certain temperature for a certain time, each ingredient is different. When each ingredient is maximized then you mouth will enjoy all the flavors the ingredient posses and you get the most food value out of it, too. Making a sauce with several ingredients can be complicated and may need three pans so nothing gets over or under cooked. So too, with tailoring, each part needs to maximized for the body that is going to wear it. This is something rtw can't do (m2m is just a variation of rtw), though you can take it home and make some of the changes yourself if you know how. The problems with laundromats is they don't know how either, and have ruined many a tailors fine work, and for that reason some tailors press according to laundromats. There are or were 1-4 pictures I would love to scan. If I had one I would show you the difference between fine tailored and rtw. The picture is of men standing in their Sundays best in a long row in front of the school house in a small farming community, early 1920s. All but one is wearing rtw. They are graded up or down to "fit" the size of customer. Probably all from the same factory. The extailor is wearing a garment that is made for him. Nothing fashion forward. The details of the rtws is much less in tailoring skills, because they were selling the garments for way less, and none of them were made for only the person wearing it. The extailor his collar was made for just him, the shoulders too, a choice out of a several that tailors do. Every part of the garment was maximized that way, even the proportions. If he was wearing another's factories suit he would have stood out, but not necessarily better. In a way it is like comparing the greasy spoon to the gourmet. No, they don't look a like either. One of your coats has shoulder that I don't think you will ever see from a factory, in my opinion it is not fashion forward, but does stand out (plaid with two dogs and a lake and tree).

The have nots look at the rich and see that they have a garment for everything, even things they didn't know there were special garments for. The picture of the two men above are for two different occasions, and both garments are correct. One is for the race course, so more fashion forward (or keeping up with the times)(good art needs a theme or several themes, so, race courses need racer clothes). The other garments are for a whole different setting, and they too are in their proper place. The women are both wearing unusual. One has a very long collar. The other one has that peter panish collar that does something unusual in front. It has a very nice sleeve crowns, which I prefer, but, both are nice. The other one has a typical SR puffed sleeve crown.

Even the great painting you mention is unique. Her face is lite up somehow. He took a plain Jane and did something to it. Some people believe she was painted naked, which gives that certain smile that catches the eye. Good artist understand light and dark and how to use it. So, how understated is this painting? And, is it possible to be understated and famous? If understated is to be not notices, then what is it about this painting that draws people to it?

[shredder]

So, anyone for velvet turnback cuffs?