How a cloth looks in a swatch vs. how it looks made up

[carl browne]

Are there any rules of thumb in trying to determine from a swatch how a garment will look when it's made up?

My clothes seldom turn out exactly as I pictured them when I was looking at the swatch. Not bad, just a little different. I know the cloth IS ALWAYS exactly what I ordered, because I keep the swatch most of the time, and I only deal with straight-shooters. Nevertheless, sometimes the color isn't exactly what I expected. Other times the texture is a little different than I imagined. Still others the patterns aren't exactly what I was expecting.

I'm hoping there's a set of simple rules I could follow that would help me to develop my eye.

Thanks,

C

[Jordan Marc]

Carl:

Swatches tell you very little about the overall look of any garment in your wardrobe. It's too small to see the repeat of the pattern of the fabric. Ideally what you want is a good length of cloth from a bolt, not a sample book. The tailor or merchant will drape it artfully over your shoulder so you get a full-scale view of the fabric in a three-way mirror. If you're still somewhat hesitant about your choice, ask the tailor or merchant to show you the bolt in natural sunlight. Lighting at some of the finest tailors and clothmakers is atrocious. It really is a case of what you see is what you get.

JMB

[S. Gillette]

It may also help to lay the swatch over your arm or leg in order to see the cloth formed a little bit. Of course, swatches are most often way to small to allow for a full judgement on the cloth.

[Rowly]

I have the same problem. Mistakes can be costly...or worse, as you could end up with something you hate, and won't want to wear it at all. I have started the following process......
If I see a suit in a magazine, or t.v, or movie that appeals to me...then I try to get a similar cloth..
Then, I carry it around and compare it to rtw finished suits to ensure it is suitably similar ( pardon the pun).
I also look at it in the lighting environment it is to be worn in..e.g. a dimly lit restaurant, or cocktail bar ( where it will look a lot darker than say a well lit office). Finally, I have bought well worn suits from ebay for under £10 , just to see if the pattern suits me, as I did recently with a pow..... for a few quid, the uncertainty is removed allowing you to get the real thing with confidence, or avoid a costly mistake. TK Max can also be useful for this purpose. Up market rtw also use some nice patterns....so, you can see what you like, and what suits you....and then go and have something similar made.

Suggestion:....It would be useful to have a reference chart mapping what cloth is used in what suits in what movies/dramas, etc..............I hope this helps ....,Rowly

[Sergius]

In my experience I have to select with very quiet. I take my swatch and I check it with sunny days, cloudy days, during morning and night.
So I pick up after long time. So it's difficult make a mistake.
The very problem is about Pow or other design with check. In that case I think it's better watch a very good length of cloth.
Or better: trust in delicious taste of LL and Michael. You can't wrong.

[Jordan Marc]

Gentlemen and Ladies:

The problem with being impressed with a suit or dress worn in a movie or a mini-series on tee vee and wanting it for yourself is that it was
designed for a specific actor. It isn't a case of extras or bit players being sent to Wardrobe to be dressed in stock outfits rented from Bermans; leads get special attention by the costume designer, at least that's the way it used to be in the heyday of Hollywood. If a picture entails nothing more than modern dress, it is not uncommon for the costume designer or stylist to take the leads shopping at upscale shops. Example, when Cary Grant produced That Touch of Mink he saw no reason to employ a costume designer for his co-star Doris Day. He simply took her to Bergdorf Goodman and helped her choose ready-to-wear outfits, just to keep production costs down. Frugal fellow, CG.

Some people try to track down the costume designer and attempt to commission an exact copy of an outfit worn by this actor or that one.
A fact of life, you neither look like said actor nor have his coloring and complexion. Be your own person and put yourself in the hands of a
really good tailor or dressmaker. For heaven's sake! be an original.

JMB

[carl browne]

Excellent advice, all. However I was thinking more in terms of learning to choose more wisely from a swatch alone, since often that's all I have. Plainly, the bigger the swatch the better, and best of all is standing out in daylight with a bolt of cloth. I've also tried pinning a swatch to a wall and looking at it from various distances, and making comparisons to things I already have.

Let me give a few examples of my own observations regarding swatch-to-made-up and perhaps you can weigh in on wheather they are correct:

1. Cloths tend to look lighter when made up. This seems to be true for dark colors as well as lighter ones.
2. Bright patterns tend not to look so bright when made up. Colored threads tend to look more subtle, stripes and checks tend to stand out less and seem smaller.
3. Textures, on the other hand, tend to stand out a little more. Ribs, slubs, hairyness, sheen, etc. all seem a little more pronounced.

There may be other effects I don't know about, and I acknowledge that my observations may be wrong, or at least very subjective.

Obviously, I could protect myslef by playing it safe, but that's the LAST thing I want to do. There's no fun in that whatsoever.

Thanks again,

C

[carl browne]

The whole Hollywood thing is a recipe for disaster. All of us want to be Cary Grant, and none of us want to be Edward G. Robinson. Those of us who harbor the conciet that Cary Grant's clothes will make us look like Cary Grant can only expect abject disappointment. The trouble comes from aping Cary Grant's style when you have Edward G. Robinson's figure. My own opinion is that each of us should try to be the best man he can be.

C

[Costi]

Interesting observations, carl browne. I never considered these matters, but now that I think of it you may be right.
I don't like choosing cloth from a bunch of swatches, I find it very deceiving. I enjoy visiting well supplied cloth shops and choosing a length from a bolt (out of 20 ). The choice may not necessarily be narrower (some shops are absolutely huge) and, if you are set on a mill name, you may try to find out the address of a cloth shop nearby that sells it and see a bolt. As mentioned, the bolt needs to be taken out, in daylight, but not under direct sunlight - a shaded area is better and a cloudy day - the best. Don't be surprised if passer-by volunteer opinions while you're in the middle of the sidewalk five steps away from a shop assistant draped in beautiful cloth
Beyond making sure that what I see is what I get, I like cloth shops because they make me feel like a child in a candy shop and I enjoy exploring the shelves and asking to see the old stuff, the new stuff, making comparisons and chatting with the (most often very knowledgeable) shop assistants. I always supply my own cloth to the tailor and shopping for it is part of the game for me. I wouldn't even think of depriving myself of this pleasure... unless, of course, I can be part of the design process

[carl browne]

Costi

But am I right about my observations?

Sadly, I live about 40 miles from Los Angeles, where my tailor visits once a quarter. The rest of the time he's in London.

Your candy store analogy is apt. I think I'll see if I can't find a reputable cloth merchant in or near Los Angeles and do as you do. That is part of the fun, do doubt. Worst case, I can order lengths of cloth from swatches, and decide then if I want them made up after I've had a chance to look at the whole thing. Don't know if they can be sent back or if I'll get stuck with them--but that might be cheap insurance against future disappointment. Is this how you handle the Cloth Club? I know you are a regular subscriber, and I also know the runs are so small that it is impossible to obtain swatches before buying, and the subscribers have to commit before actually seeing the cloth in person.

[Costi]

Is this how you handle the Cloth Club? I know you are a regular subscriber, and I also know the runs are so small that it is impossible to obtain swatches before buying, and the subscribers have to commit before actually seeing the cloth in person.

Carl, no, as I wrote above - "UNLESS I can be part of the design process" (alluding to the LL Clothclub). I order "blindly", but then I also trust Michael blindly on these matters and so far I never had reason to regret it. Actually, when you're part of the design process (as much as everyone else participating), when you know the specifications of the cloth, when you know who weaves it and have seen and touched similar cloth from the same mill before, when you know who is the designer-in-chief and trust his taste and talent, when you get to see pictures before ordering, there is little chance of being disappointed. I am not the only one in the LL who wrote that the Clothclub commissions surpass expectations every time.
Now ordering entire lengths just to check if you like them sounds a bit extreme. You'll end up with a cloth warehouse at home and the "cheap insurance" might prove expensive when multiplied with the number of "failed" lengths I am sure there must be good cloth shops in LA - perhaps other members who live in the area can help.

[tteplitzmd]

One of the things I like about seeing the bolts of cloth is that you get both the visual and tactile elements to evaluate. Swatch books are a poor substitute. There are some cloth wholesalers and distributors in Europe and the UK who may allow a "hobbyist" the occasional visit. In the US you're limited to urban cloth shops or your tailor. Some deride it, but over the years I have found some superb cloths at Tip Top in Brooklyn and years ago at Textile King, London. The latter was sold and can no longer be recommended. I would add that you really have to have the temperment to go thru dozens or hundreds of bolts. It also helps to know something about the cloth, weave, dyes, composition. Most people are not that interested in the details.

Some years ago I wandered into the SR showroom of Hunt & Winterbotham. They had some odd lengths of prototypes (sample) cloth, including a range of linen milled in Scotland in tweed patterns for jacketing. Superb, unusual, and it was very satisfying to have purchased it.

[Costi]

Some years ago I wandered into the SR showroom of Hunt & Winterbotham. They had some odd lengths of prototypes (sample) cloth, including a range of linen milled in Scotland in tweed patterns for jacketing. Superb, unusual, and it was very satisfying to have purchased it.

Treasure hunting is a lot of fun indeed. That's one pleasure that you never get from books and bunches. Almost every old shop has something spectacular that you wouldn't expect to find. One of my pairs of morning dress trousers (recently photographed as background for shoes in another thread) were made of a cloth purchased in Patras (Greece) from an old shop that had excellent English stuff and, judging by the way it looked, was preparing to cease activity. I had missed a boat to Italy at Igoumenitsa (because I found heavy snow on the mountains in March) and I had to turn around and drive all the way to Patras to get on another boat the following day. As they usually leave late in the afternoon, I had the whole day to wander around Patras and just happened to bump into this small cloth shop. Many of the bolts had been eaten through by moths, so I had to thoroughly inspect each of my picks. The cloth is excellent, I paid incredibly little for it and I am sure I would not remember how I got had I picked it from a bunch of swatches.
Many Italian cloth shops are very nice old world shops - a pleasure just to be inside: antique wood shelves and cabinets, oriental carpets, Murano chandeliers, everything very tastefully put together. And, again, the shop assistants are very knowledgeable and eager to present and comment on the cloths with interlocutors that go beyond "I'd like a medium grey medium weight cloth for an all-year-round suit for my husband".

[couch]

Alluding to your original question, Carl, there is more than one reason to visit a decent cloth vendor. Even if you don't see the full range of high quality cloths you hope to, you'll get practice estimating things like the effect of pattern scale (for instance, you can see how windowpanes or chalk stripes of various sizes and spacings look when draped) and begin to learn what's likely to work for you. You can try Michael's "pinch, squeeze, and roll" test on lots of cloths. You can compare small areas of a cloth to a draped length on the bolt and improve your ability to estimate how the light-dark value will ultimately look based on a swatch. You can begin to recognize quality.

Then, as Costi and tteplitzmd have said, if you have access to a wholesaler who carries some good cloth, even if unpredictably, you have the pleasure of the hunt and perhaps the occasional bargain. Tip-Top in Brooklyn has supplied surprising gems to the tailors of many east coast members, including manton, collarmelton, smoothjazzone, and myself, to (virtually) name but a few.

One of them was a grayed-blue woolen flannel with a chalk windowpane that looks virtually identical to the one in the "Agnelli's other windowpane" thread. Eventually I'll post a photo of the suit made from my length.

[radicaldog]

Last summer I ordered a suit in a yellowish Irish linen from a Zegna book. The colour looked way more eye-catching (in a bad way) as a suit than it did as a 15x15 cm swatch of cloth. Just think about it: a little patch of colour can look interesting, but three metres of cloth draped around a fellow are something else entirely, alas.