Certainly some interesting questions and answers. Before rtw and mtm how was bespoke done? Some of the SR shops had bespoke shops other places in town for the wilder cuts and under different names. I think a person trained to measure and then sent out by the head cutter (master) to take measures is good enough. Then somebody who cuts a pattern and cloth. Then the fitter. From one guild to another they had different rules, but all bespoke. There are different ways of doing an apprenticeships, and it largely depends upon how the master thinks. Even today SR sends out work to independent tailors, so it is not in house, but clearly bespoke by bespoke tailors. Huntsman had how many tailors working on one jacket? Then, why not measure, pattern making and fittings by different people? One man band tailors, or, Jeff tailors, would often have their wives put in the lining and button holes and put the buttons on. And, of course, how many garments are made by apprentices? No doubt an experienced cutter would like to do his own measuring, etc. so there is less fitting problems, which is a time saver. But if the master does all how does an apprentice learn? We do want a new crop of tailors and cutters, don't we? So, the ones that create new tailors and cutters decide how they can best teach. The customer really doesn't have much say in this, really none.
With a new customer he should expect at least two fittings, or more, as needed. If less, then mtm.
Rubinacci question
I can speak regarding Poole. Philip Parker, long a MD and senior cutter for the firm, only stopped traveling regularly to New York at the end of last year (though he is still traveling on occasion, including to China). He was always accompanied by a more junior cutter (including LL certified artisan Joshua Byrne when he was with the firm, where I first met him). For several recent trips he was accompanied by Alex Cooke, a younger cutter with his own book, who has done fittings for me on things cut by Mr. Parker. Mr. Cooke now does the U.S. trips and has been accompanied on the last two by Daniel Kisiel, whom I believe is also (an even younger) cutter, though I have not specifically asked him about this. On most recent New York trips, Simon Cundey has also been along to manage the schedule and administrative side--and provide the hospitality of the firm.alden wrote:Maybe some of our American members can tell us. Do your cutters visit you in the States?l
What pur-sang describes when visiting Rubinacci is MTM, not bespoke.
I have had MTM (from other firms) and it fine for what it is. I usually have ten complaints with each MTM suit, and only eight with bespoke.
And MTM is a relative bargain at half the price of bespoke. But that is the point: that is what MTM is worth: half. Why pay full bespoke prices for a MTM experience?
I have never had a bespoke suit made without the cutter, and often the tailor, present. I also want the owner present to help guide the whole process; that is the bespoke experience.
That is why I prefer to travel to tailors rather than they travel to me. Too much is lost in translation otherwise.
Plus, I enjoy hanging out in tailor shops. I’ve got time and I’m not in a rush; I don’t need more suits and I’ve got no where to go. Buying a bespoke suit now and then is like a bon bon; a small treat and a gift to myself, punctuating another year or celebrating an event. I want to savor the experience and like to see incremental improvements in each suit based on what I've previously learned.
I want the cutter to see and know me and I want to know him; I don’t like an anonymous experience. I also like to go into the backroom to meet the tailors, particularly the one tailor who will exclusively sew my suit and who will spend many, many hours on my suit. He needs to know me and know that I appreciate his work. He will take increased pride in his workmanship and extra care in sewing my suit. Because he knows, if only briefly, the person who will wear his suit and he knows that his skills and effort are recognized and appreciated.
As to Rubinacci, both Milan and Naples have full bespoke ateliers. Neither Rome nor London have any tailor. It goes without saying that any bespoke aficionado should travel to either Milan or Naples.
The head cutter in Rubinacci Milan, Antonio di Melfi, is a wonderful cutter: but for a Milanese suit, not a Neapolitan. I have tried on coats he has made in the Milanese style for clients and they are superb. Don’t forget, Antonio was previously head cutter at A.Caraceni, a few minutes away from Rubinacci’s atelier on Via Montenapoleone. In this regard, Antonio out-Caracenis, Caraceni. But he does not cut a good Neapolitan silhouette. For that, go the specialists: the Neapolitan tailors residing in Naples.
Alden has provided a valuable list of established, respected Neapolitan and I wish I could visit each and everyone of them:
“Rubinacci was practically a founding member of the LL Certified Artisan Program, though from what I am reading these days, it will behoove you to visit them in Naples. There are many excellent tailors in the city: Gennaro Solito, Mario Formosa, Arturo Pastena, Biagio Mazzuoccolo, Renato Ciardi, Nunzio Pirozzi, Sartoria Dal Cuore will each provide a fine service.”
So in conclusion, pur-sang, there is no need to settle for MTM in the guise of bespoke. Get on the plane to Naples!
I have had MTM (from other firms) and it fine for what it is. I usually have ten complaints with each MTM suit, and only eight with bespoke.
And MTM is a relative bargain at half the price of bespoke. But that is the point: that is what MTM is worth: half. Why pay full bespoke prices for a MTM experience?
I have never had a bespoke suit made without the cutter, and often the tailor, present. I also want the owner present to help guide the whole process; that is the bespoke experience.
That is why I prefer to travel to tailors rather than they travel to me. Too much is lost in translation otherwise.
Plus, I enjoy hanging out in tailor shops. I’ve got time and I’m not in a rush; I don’t need more suits and I’ve got no where to go. Buying a bespoke suit now and then is like a bon bon; a small treat and a gift to myself, punctuating another year or celebrating an event. I want to savor the experience and like to see incremental improvements in each suit based on what I've previously learned.
I want the cutter to see and know me and I want to know him; I don’t like an anonymous experience. I also like to go into the backroom to meet the tailors, particularly the one tailor who will exclusively sew my suit and who will spend many, many hours on my suit. He needs to know me and know that I appreciate his work. He will take increased pride in his workmanship and extra care in sewing my suit. Because he knows, if only briefly, the person who will wear his suit and he knows that his skills and effort are recognized and appreciated.
As to Rubinacci, both Milan and Naples have full bespoke ateliers. Neither Rome nor London have any tailor. It goes without saying that any bespoke aficionado should travel to either Milan or Naples.
The head cutter in Rubinacci Milan, Antonio di Melfi, is a wonderful cutter: but for a Milanese suit, not a Neapolitan. I have tried on coats he has made in the Milanese style for clients and they are superb. Don’t forget, Antonio was previously head cutter at A.Caraceni, a few minutes away from Rubinacci’s atelier on Via Montenapoleone. In this regard, Antonio out-Caracenis, Caraceni. But he does not cut a good Neapolitan silhouette. For that, go the specialists: the Neapolitan tailors residing in Naples.
Alden has provided a valuable list of established, respected Neapolitan and I wish I could visit each and everyone of them:
“Rubinacci was practically a founding member of the LL Certified Artisan Program, though from what I am reading these days, it will behoove you to visit them in Naples. There are many excellent tailors in the city: Gennaro Solito, Mario Formosa, Arturo Pastena, Biagio Mazzuoccolo, Renato Ciardi, Nunzio Pirozzi, Sartoria Dal Cuore will each provide a fine service.”
So in conclusion, pur-sang, there is no need to settle for MTM in the guise of bespoke. Get on the plane to Naples!
As an aside, what are the principle differences between the Milanese and Neapolitan silhouettes?The head cutter in Rubinacci Milan, Antonio di Melfi, is a wonderful cutter: but for a Milanese suit, not a Neapolitan. I have tried on coats he has made in the Milanese style for clients and they are superb. Don’t forget, Antonio was previously head cutter at A.Caraceni, a few minutes away from Rubinacci’s atelier on Via Montenapoleone. In this regard, Antonio out-Caracenis, Caraceni. But he does not cut a good Neapolitan silhouette. For that, go the specialists: the Neapolitan tailors residing in Naples.
Thank you so much uppercase for giving such a detailed response. I totally agree with everything you said, and when I said I know how to proceed in my previous post, that is what I meant, I am definitely flying to Naples for my Rubinacci (when I get the chance). I think it's unacceptable for them to sell this MTM service for four, five, six thousand pounds or more, although they can get away with it, because there are other big name brands doing the same thing. It's quite amazing how sometimes bespoke can seem relatively cheap in comparison to some rip offs out there.
My immediate reaction was the same as sartorius, what distinguishes between Milanese and Neapolitan?
My immediate reaction was the same as sartorius, what distinguishes between Milanese and Neapolitan?
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andreyb
All this is very fun and enjoyable, but remember that you are essentially stealing their working time.uppercase wrote:Plus, I enjoy hanging out in tailor shops. I’ve got time and I’m not in a rush; I don’t need more suits and I’ve got no where to go. Buying a bespoke suit now and then is like a bon bon; a small treat and a gift to myself, punctuating another year or celebrating an event. I want to savor the experience and like to see incremental improvements in each suit based on what I've previously learned.
I want the cutter to see and know me and I want to know him; I don’t like an anonymous experience. I also like to go into the backroom to meet the tailors, particularly the one tailor who will exclusively sew my suit and who will spend many, many hours on my suit. He needs to know me and know that I appreciate his work. He will take increased pride in his workmanship and extra care in sewing my suit. Because he knows, if only briefly, the person who will wear his suit and he knows that his skills and effort are recognized and appreciated.
The aformentioned "Savile Row Rippled and Smoothed" book by Richard Anderson is a revealing read... we already know that tailors' margins are slim, but what we might not know is that they are very, very busy folks.
Sharing a lunch with your cutter and tailor (after establishing a mutually friendly rapport) is one thing. Tinkering in the shop is another.
Andrey
what ...? So let me get this right ..!!! Someone who is charging six or more thousand pounds for a suit has a slim margin?we already know that tailors' margins are slim
And if so why ? I personally refuse to pay this amount even for bespoke when the already expensive A&S charge around three and a half thousand . I have a close personal relationship with my tailor . I spend time in his work shop (although it is far from glamorous)talking to him about what I do, where I travel and what I do in my social time .. He always says that the more he knows about me the better the coats he cuts and personally makes for me are . I also know a lot about him and that helps me feel good when I go to visit him .. That is what I call a bespoke experience . Mr George , says that now in his seventies after being a bespoke tailor for over 50 years it takes him around 50 hours to make a coat for me , as he does it by hand .. At what price ? Having read the above I don't think it would be good for the forum to reveal this information ever ...
Uppercase has been very generous with his insights communicated via photo essays that can be found on the LL for your study. I suggest you take full advantage of these.
As an aside, what are the principle differences between the Milanese and Neapolitan silhouettes?
http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =36&t=6784
Cheers
M Alden
This is excellent advice.That is why I prefer to travel to tailors rather than they travel to me. Too much is lost in translation otherwise.
Both Yialabis and Uppercase have made the point that it is as important for the client to be familiar with and know the people who will be sewing the clothes as it is for the craftsmen to know the client. Clearly this is a more difficult thing to do with a large house as opposed to a small one or with individual artisans, and it is certainly not a requirement, but somehow things work out better if a "reciprocal" mental imprint and bond is forged.
That is why many of us prefer dealing one on one with individuals as opposed to organizations. Communication is easier. And the benefit of having one skilled craftsman measure, cut, fit, sew,finish and deliver a garment cannot be overstated.
Cheers
M Alden
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andreyb
I don't know whom you referring to when quoting "six or more thousand pounds". But SR prices are indeed high (not that high, but high).yialabis wrote:what ...? So let me get this right ..!!! Someone who is charging six or more thousand pounds for a suit has a slim margin?
Yet still they do have slim margins... Don't forget on expenses related to rent, training, retirement, keeping sales stuff, etc.
Read Mr Anderson's book... for a long time Huntsman managed to stay in black ink only thanks to Japanese concessions.
Not to speak on individual tailors -- whose prices and margins are even slimmer.
Yes, my own tailor charges much less that SR houses do -- but he doesn't carry burden of their expenses, and openly admits this is the primary reason of his lower prices.
Do you know someone who became rich by owning a bespoke tailoring company? The only one I know is Scholte, and the rumors are that he did so thanks to his sound real estate investments.
Individual tailors earn much less -- many of them hardly able to afford a bespoke garment for themselves.
So, when you use their time, it makes sence to do so with utmost care, though and respect for their craft. Again, if you are friends and chat for a few minutes each morning is one thing. When you hang out in the shop simply because you just ordered a suit and don't have anything else to do is another.
Andrey
Andrey , I was just referring to the above ... I think the word unacceptable used by our dear fellow is at least a moderate and soft characterization of what I would call a straight forward effort for pure robbery . In any case the choice and the decision- to be robbed or not – is always taken by the client in these cases. Thanks to the LL we can make those decisions using a much broader perspective . !I think it's unacceptable for them to sell this MTM service for four, five, six thousand pounds or more,
Regards
Vassilis
The process just became easier thanks to a contribution from one of our very talented members. Thanks GR!As an aside, what are the principle differences between the Milanese and Neapolitan silhouettes?
Cheers
Michael
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carl browne
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Excellent thread:
Returning to the original subject, I suppose it is better to have the cutter do all of the fittings.
However, if you're not particularly hard to fit, you might have satisfactory results.
I think it's a very good idea to establish a rapport with your cutter, and make a point of seeing him for fittings when you can. My own experience at Richard Anderson is that Brian Lishak does most of the fittings for me in California, but I always see Richard in London when possible.
It also helps to remember that this is a very human endeavor, practice makes perfect, and results for each commission will be a little better than the last. That's not to say that your first commission will be bad. However, I notice subtle improvements in each commission.
Returning to the original subject, I suppose it is better to have the cutter do all of the fittings.
However, if you're not particularly hard to fit, you might have satisfactory results.
I think it's a very good idea to establish a rapport with your cutter, and make a point of seeing him for fittings when you can. My own experience at Richard Anderson is that Brian Lishak does most of the fittings for me in California, but I always see Richard in London when possible.
It also helps to remember that this is a very human endeavor, practice makes perfect, and results for each commission will be a little better than the last. That's not to say that your first commission will be bad. However, I notice subtle improvements in each commission.
You guys are all a lot more experienced than me, but my notion of the distinction between MTM and bespoke is quite a bit different from what's being discussed here. While I agree that you're best off making the trip to Naples or Milan to get fitted by both Mariano and your cutter, I don't think the product is suddenly 'MTM' if the cutter isn't there. A personal pattern is made for you in either case.
I've only seen one jacket in real life that Mariano fitted without a cutter, and it still looked really good--for what it's worth. I took pains to make it Naples for my fittings because I wanted to get the best product possible, not because it wouldn't be 'bespoke' otherwise.
I've only seen one jacket in real life that Mariano fitted without a cutter, and it still looked really good--for what it's worth. I took pains to make it Naples for my fittings because I wanted to get the best product possible, not because it wouldn't be 'bespoke' otherwise.
I addressed these issues a very long time ago in a 2003 post on Ask Andy, a response to a question about Rubinacci. (The bespoke process described in the article regarding the making of a bespoke shirt was the process employed by Pierre Duboin when he was at Lanvin.) It can be found here:
http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =32&t=5108
Most men will be better served by the direct intervention of the cutter in the making of a true, bespoke pattern. And if they are paying the elevated price for bespoke, there is an argument that says, they should receive it in exchange.
This juggling of words may seem a trifle but words have meaning. I should say that there is nothing pejorative intended in the description of a garment being MTM. It is a perfectly fine solution for a great many men. What troubles us is MTM being sold as bespoke.
The LL production is MTM even though we call it Benchmade to Measure (BTM) because of the hand sewn aspect of the make. A “personal” pattern is made for the members who use the service, but I do not call it “bespoke” because the process is not bespoke. That being said, I am very proud of the products being made and inspect each of them personally. The fact of them being MTM does not lessen their quality except to the degree that they cannot fit a client as precisely as a garment conceived from a truly bespoke process.
To get that next level of fit, I need to have my cutter work with the client and that means a trip to Italy…and as you know well, it’s not that unpleasant of a place to visit.
Cheers
Michael Alden
http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =32&t=5108
How does a cutter make a pattern, a three dimensional representation of a body, without ever seeing the body in question? The result might be a “personal” pattern to the extent that the clients name is printed on it, but it will also be an “approximate” pattern.I don't think the product is suddenly 'MTM' if the cutter isn't there. A personal pattern is made for you in either case.
Most men will be better served by the direct intervention of the cutter in the making of a true, bespoke pattern. And if they are paying the elevated price for bespoke, there is an argument that says, they should receive it in exchange.
This juggling of words may seem a trifle but words have meaning. I should say that there is nothing pejorative intended in the description of a garment being MTM. It is a perfectly fine solution for a great many men. What troubles us is MTM being sold as bespoke.
The LL production is MTM even though we call it Benchmade to Measure (BTM) because of the hand sewn aspect of the make. A “personal” pattern is made for the members who use the service, but I do not call it “bespoke” because the process is not bespoke. That being said, I am very proud of the products being made and inspect each of them personally. The fact of them being MTM does not lessen their quality except to the degree that they cannot fit a client as precisely as a garment conceived from a truly bespoke process.
To get that next level of fit, I need to have my cutter work with the client and that means a trip to Italy…and as you know well, it’s not that unpleasant of a place to visit.
Cheers
Michael Alden
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