Waistcoats

[bry2000]

I am considering commissioning a 3 piece suit. I have not worn a waistcoat in years. I am wondering what are the rules for determining the style of waistcoast (single breasted vs. doubled, lapelled or not)? How do you coordinate the style of the waistcoast with the style of the suit jacket and cloth? For example, would you wear a lapelled waistcoast with a SB notch lapel subtle charcoal pinstripe? Any guidance would be appreciated. Thank you.

[manton]

Traditionally, lapels give a SB vest a country flair and are not made from city (worsted or flannel) cloth. Nonentheless, I know of at least two LL members who prefer lapels on their SB vests, even with city suitings, and I do not hold this against them; I mention it only for the sake of completeness. The classic SB vest for a city suit has no lapels, four welt pockets, and six buttons: five that work, and a bottom button placed on the curve that can't function.

Vests look marvelous with SB suits. They are less necessary, and more hidden, with DB suits, but not "incorrect". I think that DB coats should only be paired with SB vests, as a DB vest would be "too much." But I am aware that others disagree.

An SB suit with a DB vest is a marvelous look, but somewhat unusual and perhaps not the best thing for a first suit or for an arch-conservative working enviornment. DB vests should have lapels. If the coat lapels are notched, the vest should have shawl lapels. If the coat is peaked, shawl or peak on the vest. Better made vests have real lapels, i.e., one piece of cloth that really rolls over. Cheaper ones have lapels that are sewn onto the edge of the vest front.

[TVD]

I would agree that most single breasted waistcoats for a city suit would have no lapels. However, at the end of the 1990s the cheap ready made sector in the UK discovered the 4 or 5 button SB three piece suit, and this type flooded the market. As lapels are very expensive to get right (proper roll etc.), the waistcoats were designed without them. This has considerably cheapened the look, and I have become somewhat allergic to the sight of badly cut and ill fitting examples. It always reminds me of aprons...

To me a properly rolled lapel on a bespoke SB waistcoat is refreshingly beautiful.

And if you are willing to make a bold statement, a double breasted waistcoat with generously cut lapels is one of the most elegant and beautiful garments I know. But you will have to work in an environment that is forgiving / conservative (eg the Bar) or where you do not mind standing out.

[Will]

I will put lapels on waistcoats for single breasted city flannels, but I leave them off of worsteds.

The single breasted peak lapel city suit with double breasted waistcoat is a great look.

[dopey]

I agree that true lapels on a waistcoat may be more difficult to execute than the more usual added lapels, but I am not sure it is a better option. I certainly don’t think the cost is really relevant with bespoke as your tailor will probably make whichever you prefer, without upcharge. I think the added stitched lapels are a better option than full lapels because they are significantly less bulky. Full lapels take up significantly more room both under the front of the suitcoat (a small problem) and under the collar of the suitcoat (a bigger problem). Every Time I have considered full lapels, I have backed away.

I would love to hear what our resident tailors have to say about the relative difficulty or cost of making full lapels and also about their added bulk.

And for what it is worth, I nearly always order an SB peak lapeled waistcoat with my SB suits and often with my DB suits. I have never ordered a DB waistcoat and don’t expect to do so any time soon.

[manton]

In my experience, the coat is open where the vest lapels lie, so the extra bulk is not an issue.

[cuffthis]

An OTR example of SB Peak Lapel with DB crossover vest



Vest alone

[dopey]

In my experience, the coat is open where the vest lapels lie, so the extra bulk is not an issue.

Manton:

Certainly, with a DB suit, the vest lapels are largely under the coat front. Even on a SB, the vest lapels begin in an area that is open, but they then go under the coat. As I wrote, above, though, the incremental difference in the front between an add-on lapel and a true lapel is small, resulting in a smaller problem. The bigger problem is the incremental added bulk at the collar. An add-on lapel vest has no real collar. A true lapel vest also has a full collar at the rear (you could make it without, but that would seem pointless), adding a double layer of suit cloth, where there is already double suit cloth plus double collar cloth. The vest lapel collar is lower than the others, but they are in the same area.

I know at least one of our members has a true roll lapel vest on a Poole suit, and I am sure there are others. Can anyone offer any empirical evidence on this subject?

Also, Manton: When you said that lapeled vests under notched lapel suits take a shawl collar, were you talking only about DB vests? Otherwise, that rule would be honored only in the breach.

[manton]

Certainly, with a DB suit, the vest lapels are largely under the coat front.

True, but I don't wear vests with DB suits, so I was thinking of SB.

Even on a SB, the vest lapels begin in an area that is open, but they then go under the coat.

True, but the "bulge" is in the opening; the edges that lie under the coat are basically flat.

The bigger problem is the incremental added bulk at the collar. An add-on lapel vest has no real collar. A true lapel vest also has a full collar at the rear (you could make it without, but that would seem pointless)

No, it's not. The point is to give the lapels some life and roll, and not a pressed-flat inner edge. It works. Also, DB shawl lapels have no collar.

Also, Manton: When you said that lapeled vests under notched lapel suits take a shawl collar, were you talking only about DB vests?

Yes.

[dopey]

Manton:

I am sure you have looked at these closely, but if you haven't, I suggest you look at some of the well made add-on lapel vests. The construction is actually quite complex, and, I suspect actually more difficult to make than the regular kind. I had forgotten that I have one true lapel vest and I just compared them (and it is made without a collar, as you describe). The add-on lapels have a cotton lining, and are made with a sort of "short-sheeting" construction that ensures that they stay flat. Since mine are peak lapels, they are also "pinned" with a few blind stitches to keep the tips from getting caught when the coat comes on and off.

Tailors: please chime in here. This is too interesting for you to ignore.

[masterfred]

I was watching the Astaire movie "Broadway Melody of 1940" recently, and Fred was wearing a notch-lapeled suit with dbl.-breasted vest. At one point he has the coat off, and I noticed the waistcoat had peaked lapels. This suit was what looked to be a dark worsted; Astaire wears a similar suit in "Blue Skies," but it looks to be made up in a houndstooth check. Needless to say, the fit of both vests is faultless.

Like Dopey, I don't care for the "plain" waistcoat. The vest top looks empty to me without the edging lapels give.

[Leonard Logsdail]

Before even thinking about style you need to ask yourself whether you will actually wear a vest or not. In my experience, whenever i ask that question, the answer is usually "no".

i find most men are more in love with the thought of wearing a vest than the practicalities wearing of an additional piece of clothing in over-heated offices plus the extra expense.

Leonard

[Mark Seitelman]

Len makes a good point. First decide if you want a vest.

The next issue is what is your style? Do you want to be noticed? Do you seek some flair from the ordinary grey suit uniform? Do you want people to comment on your clothes? Or do you prefer the Beau Brummell standard that the best dressed should not turn heads?

If you fall into the first group that wants to be noticed, then go with lapels. It's a dandyish look which will bring some compliments and inquiries. I know a criminal attorney who falls into this school, and he always wears lapels on his vest along with every other option and dodad available (e.g., cuffed sleeves, belted back, DB coat, etc.)

If you feel more comfortable not "making a statement", then go without lapels. The vest is enough of a statement.

I personally prefer a vest without lapels. However, my new Cloth Club suit was made with lapels although I did not specifically order them. However, it looks great, and I am happy that Oxxford made this design decision. (The suit is SB, 3B, with ticket pocket.)

Good luck.

[exigent]

Excellent comments that cover the subject exceedingly well--one additional note: the weight of your suit fabric should help determine whether a vest with lapels will work...for instance, though vest lapels are traditionallly associated with country suits, heavy tweeds make up rather bulky, and lapels add a thick layer of fabric over the chest, which has a undeniable effect on the fit of your coat. My last tweed suit was created from 21-ounce Scottish wool, and though I did add a vest to the thing for completeness and warmth, I also followed my tailor's advice and resisted the temptation of adding extra bulk with vest lapels. Obviously, if you are using a--much--lighter weight cloth, then taste and style are the determining factors.