Madder silk neckties

[h. richard]

Is the difference between real ancient madder (using natural dye) and modern madder obviously apparent to the eye?

I will be shopping for a few madder ties in London next week and plan to look at both the Drakes and Budd offerings. I'm not at all sure (other than the obvious--do I like the patterns, etc.) what criteria to use in selecting.

[tteplitzmd]

At least in antique oriental rugs, madder is a favored dye. Once you get into synthetic, or organic dyes, at least in rugs, the superiority of the coloring with vegetal (sic) dyes, becomes readily evident.

David Hober, in modern silk used for ties and scarves, is the dye madder or synthetic?

[h. richard]

David Hober, in modern silk used for ties and scarves, is the dye madder or synthetic?

I will let Mr. Hober speak for himself here, but he has said before that for some time now most "madder" silks have not been derived from natural dyes--the natural dyes present some sort of environmental problem. My understanding is that the "madder" ties currently offered by Drake's are modern, not ancient, madder (and thus use synthetic dye). I don't know whether Budd's offerings are true ancient madder or not. I intend to find out next week and will report back.

[David Hober]

At least in antique oriental rugs, madder is a favored dye. Once you get into synthetic, or organic dyes, at least in rugs, the superiority of the coloring with vegetal (sic) dyes, becomes readily evident.

David Hober, in modern silk used for ties and scarves, is the dye madder or synthetic?

There are really two points to think about:

First, as you mention the actual dyes used:

Commercial madder dyes have not been natural for many years, although it is possible that some of the dyes used in madder prints are natural such as indigo.

Next, the texture of the madder has been different for a number of years as it is against the law in England to use lime which was part of the process.

So Modern Madder uses an environmentally friendly way of producing texture and man made madder dyes.

If a shop tells you they are selling ancient madder ties then they are confused and are talking only about the patterns and colors.

We have from time to time Macclesfield madder prints on hand which we use for ties and pocket squares but they are modern madders - beautiful but modern.

I enjoying working with plants and have a project that I have been working on and off for a number of years to revive the making of madder prints with natural madder dyes.

At the moment we have such a long backlog of necktie orders that I am forced to focus on making bespoke neckties until we can catch up.

However, after we catch up I will get back to work on growing the madder root on one of our farms here in Thailand. Then we will make our own madder prints.

Design suggestions are always welcome.

Natural madder is used in small scale artisanal workshops here and there. I know this because we sell Thai reeled silk yarn and one artisan was telling me of some beautiful colors that she gets from using natural madder roots.

So it certainly is possible to buy a scarf at a craft show made with natural madder.