A foray into designing my first bespoke suit

[coolal]

Hello Members of the London Lounge!

I can officially claim my first post amid your ranks. I’m quite eager to get feedback from a group of opinions I universally respect.

After recently dipping my toe into the semi-bespoke / custom experience, I’m ready to dive in. The local tailor I have found provides a single basted fitting before “delivery”, aka, the second fitting if needed. Additionally, because of his experience catering to the unique needs of the local entertainment industry, he has developed a very nice attitude towards completely custom designs. By this I mean he is not inclined to stick to any house model and open to any suggestion for customization. I’m sure for most of you enjoying the benefit of high end bespoke; this comes as an unspoken expectation.

Luckily, my uncle, who has worked as a manager at one of the best fabric suppliers in Los Angeles for quite some time, has been able to provide to me, at great discount, access to their whole stock. This has allowed me to work with my tailor’s C.M.T rates which I find extraordinarily fair.

Now for the reason I’m posting. It may have been the profound boredom I experienced on this past Valentine’s Day, or simply my sartorial interest s coming to a climax, but I started sketching my first full suit. My previous foray had been with a sport coat and 2 shirts. Everything I have gleaned from the immense amount of reading I’ve done on this forum and others started to play into my design choices.

I will post my suiting and liner choice once I take the appropriate shots. At this moment, I’m trying to nail down the design. It is, however, completely fluid. This is my representation of what appeals to me most at the moment. As a proud novice, I look forward to any thoughts and suggestions.

I’m 23 years old, 170lbs, 6' tall, 40” chest and a 32”-33” waist:



I plan to follow up with photos of the fitting process and final product as the process progresses along. I have come across a few start-to-finish posts in my reading, and I find them immensely helpful, primarily because of all the fantastic opinions that are brought to the table and the discussions that ensue.

Hopefully this serves as a good resource for those, as inexperienced as I, who stumble across this in the future.

Thanks for the help,
Alex

[Jukes]

As you are going for the fitted approach, opposed to drape. It might be worth considering having no centre back seam in the jacket with the side vents, also consider gorge height and number of inside pockets.

[Costi]

There is meat for steak and meat for stew and they don't work the other way round. Until you have time to post pictures of the cloth, could you please describe it? It is an important factor in the choices you make.

[coolal]

As you are going for the fitted approach, opposed to drape. It might be worth considering having no centre back seam in the jacket with the side vents, also consider gorge height and number of inside pockets.

Very interesting point, i didn't consider no back seam, but it makes sense considering there is no center vent to open up at.

There is meat for steak and meat for stew and they don't work the other way round. Until you have time to post pictures of the cloth, could you please describe it? It is an important factor in the choices you make.

You're right, I should have taken the time to post cloth pictures and or describe it. I shall rectify both right now. The suiting while Super 130, has got quite some weight to it. Unfortunately I didn't ask my Uncle about all the details from the stock book. i.e. weight, mill, etc. I'm guessing the weight to be around 10-11oz, hopefully someone else can provide some more insight. If you can recognize the mill from selvedge, by all means mention it!

First we have the suiting with the planned jacket lining:


This is the lining I plan to use for the sleeves and pants:


This is a shot of both together with the suiting.


If you need any better shots, just let me know.

-Alex

[Costi]

Alex, I would let go of the shirt sleeve and pickstiching on the sleevehead, given the weight of the cloth perhaps a little padding won't do harm. The pickstich on the revers should be VERY subtle - just a functional feature to keep the canvas in place. I would add some more substance to the lapels, but I guess your tailor knows his trade and you can define these things during fittings. Too much taper (even if you are slim) gives the coat a dramatic shape that usually doesn't flatter; keep it subtle. Let your tailor manage proportions.
It's your choice, but I personally prefer fuller trousers with higher waist and braces - they are so much more comfortable and better looking than lean, low waisted and belted trousers. A long fly takes four buttons (high waist) - if you want your trousers to sit on your hips, 3 buttons will do. At any rate, if you want your trousers "slim fitting", forget about keeping two mobile phones in one pocket. Perhaps this could work on trousers with full legs, but I think you'd be better off designing a pair of pockets inside your coat to store your phones. I keep mine (one) in the shirt pocket.
What's the colour - greige?

[coolal]

Alex, I would let go of the shirt sleeve and pickstiching on the sleevehead, given the weight of the cloth perhaps a little padding won't do harm. The pickstich on the revers should be VERY subtle - just a functional feature to keep the canvas in place. I would add some more substance to the lapels, but I guess your tailor knows his trade and you can define these things during fittings. Too much taper (even if you are slim) gives the coat a dramatic shape that usually doesn't flatter; keep it subtle. Let your tailor manage proportions.
It's your choice, but I personally prefer fuller trousers with higher waist and braces - they are so much more comfortable and better looking than lean, low waisted and belted trousers. A long fly takes four buttons (high waist) - if you want your trousers to sit on your hips, 3 buttons will do. At any rate, if you want your trousers "slim fitting", forget about keeping two mobile phones in one pocket. Perhaps this could work on trousers with full legs, but I think you'd be better off designing a pair of pockets inside your coat to store your phones. I keep mine (one) in the shirt pocket.
What's the colour - greige?

Costi, thanks so much for your input so far. I'm curious about the sleevehead suggestion. I personally was weary of the notion of putting pick stitches in the sleeve head. If done incorrectly and or correctly but overt, it would certainly detract from the suit. The same goes for the lapel. Is there another name for a pick stitch on the reverse of the lapel, if it's main focus is for support?

From what i've read so far, the "spalla camicia" requires a pick stitch of some sort to hold the seam allowances up against the shoulder piece. Any suggestions on how to achieve the rolling affect without the shirt sleeve approach? If I'm reading correctly, perhaps you're suggesting that the use of padding in moderation can also achieve that rolling shoulder effect?

As to the sizing of the lapel and the magnitude of the taper, I agree that I will leave this up to the tailor's guidance during fittings. From what i've read the lapel width should be proportional to the shoulders, but beyond that, I don't know any of the proportional suggestions.

Great call on the 3 button fly instead of 4. I'm very used to having pants hang off my hips rather than draping from my natural waist. The jeans I currently wear have 4 buttons on the fly, thus my assumption.

The last bit about the phones is something that continues to bother me. I'd rather not have the bulk on me, but I have to have these phones with me (I'm running my first startup and need to be "connected"). My fear with putting weight in the jacket is its distance from my center of gravity. I have visions of turning hard and my jacket finding its own direction with the momentum my phones give it. The only place I can think of to "lock" the phones down, is snug in my pant pocket. Any way to cheat the slim "look" with fuller thighs?

Now for the suiting. I've attempted to take a macro shot that highlighted the different angles on the suiting in one crop. The hardest part was isolating all the different light sources affecting the color rendition.

As far as I can tell, it's a dark charcoal (maybe black) and white. The weave almost produces a "halftone" effect which ends up looking gray with a slight moire.



Thanks again for the help,
Alex

[Costi]

It looked like dark grey and beige to me, that's why I asked.
I am all for a natural shoulder, but the "spalla camicia" is part of a taioring tradition that has several elements and, if quoted separately in a different context, will look odd. This looks like a serious town suit in a dark grey worsted - nothing fancy. And that is very good. Thus my suggestion not to let yourself tempted by exotic features. You might want to let your tailor judge how much padding and wadding, if any, is necessary to complement your physique and support the sleeve.
With respect to trousers - if you go from RTW jeans to bespoke suits, you might consider adapting the style, too. Try a pair of high waist, full leg bespoke trousers for a change - you'll see how comfortable and flattering they can be, especially when worn with a shirt and a coat rahter than a T-shirt and a sweater. Why try to keep your current look and transfer it to a suit (i.e. suit trousers cut like jeans)? A suit is a suit, it has its own aesthetics which are not those of the tight jeans and cotton T-shirt.
As for the phones - they will only pull your trousers down. Are you planning to dance like Fred Astaire so your coat will take an orbit? Just move naturally and I don't think it will be a problem if the phone pockets ar high enough (i.e. not in the skirt of the coat). The coat rests on your shoulders and has nowhere to go, while your trousers, especially if belted, will tend to ride low on our hips if the pockets are loaded with half a kilo of electronics.

[mmkn2]

play into my design choices.
I look forward to any thoughts and suggestions.
I’m 23 years old, 170lbs, 6' tall, 40” chest and a 32”-33” waist:

Thanks for the help,
Alex

Alex,

My only comment is in regards to the cellular phone spaces in your trouser pocket. Because you are 23, and because the long term effects of radiofrequency waves on rapidly dividing human tissues are unknown, I would personally put those pockets near bony tissues, like a coat's inner pocket near your ribs.

At a minimum radiofrequency produces a small amount of heat, and your swimmers are all so easily influenced by high temperature. Even if you do not plan to have children, one observational study in policemen who habitually rested their radar gun on their lap showed a statistically significant increase in testicular cancer. It is better to be safe until more longitudinal data come out.

Just my thoughts.

- M

[Pelham]

With respect to trousers - if you go from RTW jeans to bespoke suits, you might consider adapting the style, too. Try a pair of high waist, full leg bespoke trousers for a change - you'll see how comfortable and flattering they can be, especially when worn with a shirt and a coat rahter than a T-shirt and a sweater. Why try to keep your current look and transfer it to a suit (i.e. suit trousers cut like jeans)? A suit is a suit, it has its own aesthetics which are not those of the tight jeans and cotton T-shirt.

Costi,

I agree that suit aesthetics have little to do with jeans and t-shirts, and that's it's a good idea to try different styles, but "fullness" is a relative term with no defined criteria. We are all given to recommend what works for us individually and then apply it across the board; I'm as guilty as anyone. Let's be honest and remember that pleated trousers with the extra-high rise and extra fullness were the product of fashion and change in the 20s and 30s and were a novelty that differed dramatically from preceding fashions. Tailoring wasn't invented in 1925. By the time of the Mods in the sixties, the 30s cut had lost interest and so rather than dress like their fathers, stylish young men ransacked the styles of their grandfathers, bringing leanness back in. Pleats and fullness came back in the 80s, and finally, today our relationship to the suit has become fully post-modern: that is to say, multiple options offer themselves with equal credibility to the consumer, and his choices are not confined or even necessarily much influenced by the cut offered by the most expensive designer brand of the moment (so men's fashion doesn't exist anymore in the proper sense). So I think it's fair to say that both 30s fullness and Edwardian trimness have escaped the transience of fashion and are equally, to resort to that over-abused word, "timeless" and representative of proper suit style.

pre-20s style:







What this has in common with a 30s suit is that neither of them are skin-tight, and so they can both be contrasted with the trousers of a post-Regency suit (just look at the scans uploaded by Sator in his thread. http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5149 ... 830nd9.jpg Those are jeans-like trousers if you want them).

[coolal]

This certainly has become a dilemma for me now. Pelham, I really like the look of the trousers present in the scans. These are looks that exemplify the 30's fullness you're talking about, right?

Is Edwardian fullness the style that Costi is referring to in his posts? I see the merit in the argument saying that I should try to adapt my taste to the stylistic conventions of "timeless fashion", however Pelham, your introduction of 30's fullness brings another aspect to this that I wasn't aware of.

How do Edwardian trousers rest on the body and drape compared to 30's fullness? I've thought about this all day, and I'm far too used to the idea of my stomach being "free" above the waist of my pants as they hang from my hips. If the scans above didn't have jackets on, how would these pants look against the torso?

edit: Pelham, I see in the last photo that the man in the middle has no jacket. Can this look be copied with a flat front instead of one pleat? This 30's fullness is starting to grow on me. If that is indeed what I'm looking at.

My main goal is to push the boundaries of "accepted wear" in the contexts in which I engage myself. This requires 80% appealing to my tastes and 20% appealing to convention. Braces though, fall 100% out of my taste, comfort and local convention. I won't trash it. I understand that the comfort and look of having pants drape from my natural waist is something that I might end up loving, but I would loose that feeling of a million bucks (chronically feeling older than my father who never wore braces). I'll save braces for another stage in my life, when I "won't care".

Thanks,
Alex

P.S. The Post-Regency suit, like the example uploaded by Manton is most certainly NOT the look I'm going for. I see what you're saying about jeans being supported by the leanness of the thigh and waist, but i'm looking for a compromise between that and high waisted fullness.

[Pelham]

Coolal,

You've got it the wrong way around! Those are very slim-fitting trousers, and the pictures are from between 1900 to about 1916. Notice that while they are cuffed at the bottom, they are NOT pleated.

30s fullness is what Costi is talking about. Edwardian slimness is what I demonstrated in those pics. Not everyone wore suits as lean as those in 1910, but the style was in full evidence, until it eventually disappeared in the 20s. Costi and many others could quickly post a photo from Apparel Arts magazine from the thirties to demonstrate the difference between that and earlier leanness.

Here's an example of 30s fullness:



See how different it is? My intention was simply to demonstrate that both silhouettes are in well represented in the styles of the past, both were fashionable at various points in time, and both are plausible options for the contemporary bespoke client.

[Pelham]

How do Edwardian trousers rest on the body and drape compared to 30's fullness? I've thought about this all day, and I'm far too used to the idea of my stomach being "free" above the waist of my pants as they hang from my hips. If the scans above didn't have jackets on, how would these pants look against the torso?

Look at the second picture I posted. You'll notice that the man on the right has his jacket open and his hand is holding it past his pocket. You can see that the trousers are pleatless, but they are NOT low-rise. They sit just a little above the hips. Some of my trousers are similar. In the 20s and thirties, these trousers would have risen an inch or two, had pleats added, and gained width in the leg.

[coolal]

Pelham,

Aha! Well then, it looks like I may have become an admirer of turn of the century fashion.

The slim fitting trousers with cuff worn in the first and second photos are pretty much exactly the look I'm going for.

Any suggestions on augmenting my design and or how I communicate this to my tailor? I'm just barely catching on to the difference between post Regency, turn of the century, Edwardian, and 30's fullness. I'm quite sure my tailor will be just as confused if I launch into a comparative analysis in the shop.

This truly has been enlightening! "Timeless fashion" has a whole new element to it now. More like "timeless fashion from different times"

Thanks,
Alex

[coolal]

How do Edwardian trousers rest on the body and drape compared to 30's fullness? I've thought about this all day, and I'm far too used to the idea of my stomach being "free" above the waist of my pants as they hang from my hips. If the scans above didn't have jackets on, how would these pants look against the torso?

Look at the second picture I posted. You'll notice that the man on the right has his jacket open and his hand is holding it past his pocket. You can see that the trousers are pleatless, but they are NOT low-rise. They sit just a little above the hips. Some of my trousers are similar. In the 20s and thirties, these trousers would have risen an inch or two, had pleats added, and gained width in the leg.

This is the look i'm going for. Is this somewhat along the lines of what Costi was referring to in high waistedness? Without the drape associated with braced pants? The cut looks perfect, just above the hip, but still below the natural waist.

-Alex

[Pelham]

This is the look i'm going for. Is this somewhat along the lines of what Costi was referring to in high waistedness? Without the drape associated with braced pants? The cut looks perfect, just above the hip, but still below the natural waist.

It's what I like as well. High-waistedness would mean something about two inches higher than that; but if it's just above the hips then it's not too low. I'm not sure I would equate braces with lots of drape, though - it's just a better choice if you do wear loose trousers - but there's nothing to stop you wearing a belt or braces with leaner trousers (and indeed, if you wear a 3 piece you must never wear a belt!)

Pelham,

Any suggestions on augmenting my design and or how I communicate this to my tailor? I'm just barely catching on to the difference between post Regency, turn of the century, Edwardian, and 30's fullness. I'm quite sure my tailor will be just as confused if I launch into a comparative analysis in the shop.

Thanks,
Alex

If you want cuffs but no pleats, then you can tell him just that.
If you want slim trousers, be careful not to have excessive tapering. Your leg is much thicker above your knee than below, but you can balance that out in your trousers. I've seen trendy-looking suits with slim trousers that are insanely tapered at the ankle. This is not good, in my humble opinion, and is a true example of the "jeans-like" trousers that Costi mentioned. In contrast to that, the trousers in the Edwardian/1910s pics I posted, while tapering somewhat, allow the ankle some proper breathing room at the bottom; this creates a more straight, even balanced silhouette. Your tailor should understand the difference if you communicate this to him.

One thing is you don't have to dictate to your tailor right away exactly how lean the trousers need to be. At the first fitting, you can get an idea of how much you want it trimmed down - it might be less than you think.

It wouldn't hurt to give braces a try - they do have a slight edge on comfort as opposed to a belt. And visually - if you're wearing a 2 piece suit, and you take your coat off, I'd much rather see your tie between a pair of braces than standing alone. It makes the difference between 1940s gentleman and supermarket manager... (but the whole problem can be averted by wearing a 3 piece or keeping your coat on, of course).

This is what I suggest based on the experiences I've had myself thusfar. I'm still rather new to bespoke myself (fourth suit coming up soon...) but my tastes are not too far from yours and I've had happy results under these guidelines. Good luck on your first project!

Regards,
P.