Cheers
M Alden
Idealized drape
I normally look at the AA illustrations for the display of interesting patterns of fabrics or unusual cuts of clothes. The following from 1936 grabbed my attention for the fact of its overall easy appearance that results from almost perfect balance and line. This idealized version of a drape suit is one you might want to copy and take to your tailors.
Cheers
M Alden
Cheers
M Alden
Last edited by alden on Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Drape, with its related minimal use of canvas and padding, is very hard to tailor well.
And even harder to look good in.
It's perhaps the most difficult silhouette to obtain from a tailor who does not already specialize in its cut and construction.
Of course, the specialists in the Drape are well known: A&S and its alumni, Rubinacci and his Neapolitan cohorts.
Perhaps we should further deconstruct the Drape into the London Drape and the Neapolitan Drape as the schools are very different and there is no mistaking the two silhouettes.
But other than these specialist tailors, I wouldn’t ask anyone else to attempt a drape cut unless he was an altogether outstanding technician and artist: it is just too difficult to successfully achieve the required balance of drape, softness, proportion without the result appearing excessive, slovenly or sack-like.
The Drape has its downside: it execution is more demanding, and seems to be more often hit or miss vs. a more structured tailoring technique, even among the better tailors.
And most importantly, it is not a silhouette which flatters most men with its attendant drooping shoulders.
Yet the Drape has long remained the most desired silhouette and this is again confirmed by those who took the recent LL survey conducted by Erasmus.
Or at least it is the silhouette which readers are most intrigued by and curious about, even if they don’t actually buy it.
My view is that the Drape is best used in sports coats and casual Summer suits, as pictured above, which best suits the silhouettes attitude.
It’s round, loose, louche, unstructured appearance is perhaps the most sophisticated coat silhouette for its informality and attendant lack of guile and pretense.
Because the silhouette exudes leisure, individuality and comfort, it is the most luxurious and indulgent of silhouettes for the worldly man.
The Drape silhouette is best, and most successfully, worn by a man who loves clothes and individuality and who dresses for his own pleasure rather than for business.
The Drape has no purpose in this world other than to please its owner; it is not utilitarian, not business wear; it need not assert itself through padded shoulders, puffed chest, slashing lapels. It is not anonymous armor but rather open, casual and welcoming.
The Drape is, rather, about comfort in the shoulders and chest and providing enough ease and movement to express oneself while wearing a casually elegant coat.
Its owner is not striving, but relaxed; he is not limited and constricted but expansive and generous. He is not anonymous and weighted with conformity, but individual and creative. He wears the Drape.
But unless the Drape is worn with whimsy and individuality, it does not work well: perhaps cloth in a bold color or pattern, perhaps suede shoes, colored socks. Something.
I don’t think that the Drape works well on a business suit.
I have a few business suits designed with a soft drape but that was probably a mistake in retrospect, as they are neither here nor there. The worsted cloth is in standard business colors and the rounded shoulder is too casual and somehow looks poorly on me for more formal purposes.
For me, the Drape is not flattering for a somber, purposeful business suit.
The Drape also requires a new wardrobe of shirts/ties/shoes: given it’s looser fit, rounded shoulders, excess cloth, it cannot easily be worn with standard issue, stiff, structured business wear. Rather, the Drape requires a complementary soft wardrobe to accompany its unbuttoned attitude.
While the Drape is the ne plus ultra of silhouettes, for business purposes it is hard to beat a more constructed suit with stronger shoulders, along the lines of a classic English suit.
Of course, there is one silhouette which brilliantly combines the je ne sais quoi of the Drape with a touch of English structure and this silhouette I would consider the most sophisticated of all: the Roman.
And even harder to look good in.
It's perhaps the most difficult silhouette to obtain from a tailor who does not already specialize in its cut and construction.
Of course, the specialists in the Drape are well known: A&S and its alumni, Rubinacci and his Neapolitan cohorts.
Perhaps we should further deconstruct the Drape into the London Drape and the Neapolitan Drape as the schools are very different and there is no mistaking the two silhouettes.
But other than these specialist tailors, I wouldn’t ask anyone else to attempt a drape cut unless he was an altogether outstanding technician and artist: it is just too difficult to successfully achieve the required balance of drape, softness, proportion without the result appearing excessive, slovenly or sack-like.
The Drape has its downside: it execution is more demanding, and seems to be more often hit or miss vs. a more structured tailoring technique, even among the better tailors.
And most importantly, it is not a silhouette which flatters most men with its attendant drooping shoulders.
Yet the Drape has long remained the most desired silhouette and this is again confirmed by those who took the recent LL survey conducted by Erasmus.
Or at least it is the silhouette which readers are most intrigued by and curious about, even if they don’t actually buy it.
My view is that the Drape is best used in sports coats and casual Summer suits, as pictured above, which best suits the silhouettes attitude.
It’s round, loose, louche, unstructured appearance is perhaps the most sophisticated coat silhouette for its informality and attendant lack of guile and pretense.
Because the silhouette exudes leisure, individuality and comfort, it is the most luxurious and indulgent of silhouettes for the worldly man.
The Drape silhouette is best, and most successfully, worn by a man who loves clothes and individuality and who dresses for his own pleasure rather than for business.
The Drape has no purpose in this world other than to please its owner; it is not utilitarian, not business wear; it need not assert itself through padded shoulders, puffed chest, slashing lapels. It is not anonymous armor but rather open, casual and welcoming.
The Drape is, rather, about comfort in the shoulders and chest and providing enough ease and movement to express oneself while wearing a casually elegant coat.
Its owner is not striving, but relaxed; he is not limited and constricted but expansive and generous. He is not anonymous and weighted with conformity, but individual and creative. He wears the Drape.
But unless the Drape is worn with whimsy and individuality, it does not work well: perhaps cloth in a bold color or pattern, perhaps suede shoes, colored socks. Something.
I don’t think that the Drape works well on a business suit.
I have a few business suits designed with a soft drape but that was probably a mistake in retrospect, as they are neither here nor there. The worsted cloth is in standard business colors and the rounded shoulder is too casual and somehow looks poorly on me for more formal purposes.
For me, the Drape is not flattering for a somber, purposeful business suit.
The Drape also requires a new wardrobe of shirts/ties/shoes: given it’s looser fit, rounded shoulders, excess cloth, it cannot easily be worn with standard issue, stiff, structured business wear. Rather, the Drape requires a complementary soft wardrobe to accompany its unbuttoned attitude.
While the Drape is the ne plus ultra of silhouettes, for business purposes it is hard to beat a more constructed suit with stronger shoulders, along the lines of a classic English suit.
Of course, there is one silhouette which brilliantly combines the je ne sais quoi of the Drape with a touch of English structure and this silhouette I would consider the most sophisticated of all: the Roman.
Very interesting first two posts, thank you.
I am interested in a London Drape jacket...but since I wear my business suits in California courts for criminal trials...I am unsure if a Draped 3 piece suit has any place in my work wardrobe
Uppercases post made me realize that perhaps Drape is a more appropriate for non-business settings...ie. evening wear, weekend wear, or an informal/casual setting
Perhaps Steed or Mahon (if he can find time to post here), can suggest on which type of customer/what type of silhoutte and business profession is a draped suit recommended for
Perhaps others non-drape tailors, like Des, who has taken on new customers who formerly wore draped suits, can point out on which silhouettes he felt drape was inappropriate (I have read his post on his dislike of drape)
Additionally, members who wear draped suits on business settings can address why they thought it looked good on them
Uppercases post made me realize that perhaps Drape is a more appropriate for non-business settings...ie. evening wear, weekend wear, or an informal/casual setting
Perhaps Steed or Mahon (if he can find time to post here), can suggest on which type of customer/what type of silhoutte and business profession is a draped suit recommended for
Perhaps others non-drape tailors, like Des, who has taken on new customers who formerly wore draped suits, can point out on which silhouettes he felt drape was inappropriate (I have read his post on his dislike of drape)
Additionally, members who wear draped suits on business settings can address why they thought it looked good on them
Likewise as to Naples drape (by Rubinacci)...are their jackets more appropriate for informal settings too?
I cannot recall seeing a concrete definition of 'Drape' although by now I think I have a fair idea.
Can one of the more knowledgeable members offer a definition?
Many thanks,
Cordovan
Can one of the more knowledgeable members offer a definition?
Many thanks,
Cordovan
The majority of my business is conducted in versions of the drape suit, not all quite as idealised as the one in Mr. Alden's picture. I have a couple of more extreme A&S examples, which I also wear comfortably for business purposes.ay329 wrote:Additionally, members who wear draped suits on business settings can address why they thought it looked good on them.
I suppose it depends on one's industry but the in creative arena I inhabit, I have no wish to appear unyielding, rigid or dogged. The Drape displays the individuality, creativity and flexibility that is integral too success in my niche. I imagine those in the legal, military or medical professions seek to convey a wholly different impression.
My early experiments have left me with a couple of suits of more militaristic origins. They get worn occasionally when I have to negotiate contracts with members of the legal profession
I think there's a difference between a drape cut, and a cut with some drape in it. I've heard that, technically speaking, Rubinacci's cut is not a 'drape cut', although it incorporates 'drape' in the way it fits (mostly across the back, and in the chest). A&S, on the other hand, is supposed to do a real drape cut. Sator had a very informative post on the subject, I believe--here or on another forum, I don't remember.
Uppercase, would the cut of many non-Rubinacci Neapolitan tailors be considered 'drape' in either of the senses above? I was under the impression that, though they are typically soft garments, they tend to be relatively lean-fitting.
I don't feel out of place wearing my suits and jackets to work, although they have drape and law is a conservative field. I suppose I might feel different if most other lawyers were in suits most of the time, but that's not the case.
Uppercase, would the cut of many non-Rubinacci Neapolitan tailors be considered 'drape' in either of the senses above? I was under the impression that, though they are typically soft garments, they tend to be relatively lean-fitting.
I don't feel out of place wearing my suits and jackets to work, although they have drape and law is a conservative field. I suppose I might feel different if most other lawyers were in suits most of the time, but that's not the case.
Greetings!
I have a bespoke Charvet shirt, which has a very narrow (not shoulder to shoulder) yoke. It is perfectly fitted (my yoke is easy, its' burden is light). Is drape dependent/determined by the yoke - weight bearing portion on the jacket?
The Drape style would then have, as a characteristic, a narrow weight bearing portion to allow for ampleness and softness to cascade from. Elegance would be fitted weight-bearing with ease and softness cascading.
I have a bespoke Charvet shirt, which has a very narrow (not shoulder to shoulder) yoke. It is perfectly fitted (my yoke is easy, its' burden is light). Is drape dependent/determined by the yoke - weight bearing portion on the jacket?
The Drape style would then have, as a characteristic, a narrow weight bearing portion to allow for ampleness and softness to cascade from. Elegance would be fitted weight-bearing with ease and softness cascading.
Excellent post Uppercase. So it was Roman?
If this earnest young Stanford MBA dropped into your office wearing this suit, would you be offended? I somehow don’t think you would be and yet he is clad in full fledged Scholte drape.
Take a look at any picture of Windsor and you will see a very “neat” drape style. And that is where it all began. I use the word “neat” because that is what my friend Tom Mahon said when he saw my coats, “They look a bit neat.” Every ounce of my own wardrobe is drape and I travel in business circles of the most conservative kind and have never had a quizzical look in thirty years.
So there is drape and there is drape. I saw a very well known journalist the other day in London wearing a 3 pc A&S suit in tweed that looked like meat hanging from bones. It was a bit dreadful and not at all what one, with a minimum of taste, would order from that prestigious firm. The writer is otherwise quite gifted and so was the suit.
Among the more recent English drapers there is a variety of possible styles. Hitch pere and fils, Mahon, Edwin DeBoise, Brian Russell, Mr. Hallberry and Colin Harvey were all cutters at A&S and each had his own interpretation of the look. There is the more fitted or “neat” drape look that I prefer and was made famous by the late Colin Harvey’s efforts for the current Prince of Wales. And there is the more ample form from other cutters.
I would rank Rubinacci in the “neat” drape category as there is nothing overly hanging, or splayed open about it. It looks comfortable and chic.
Your analysis of drape, and the kind of man who wears it, is otherwise a very good one and full of excellent insight.
Cheers
Michael Alden
If this earnest young Stanford MBA dropped into your office wearing this suit, would you be offended? I somehow don’t think you would be and yet he is clad in full fledged Scholte drape.
Take a look at any picture of Windsor and you will see a very “neat” drape style. And that is where it all began. I use the word “neat” because that is what my friend Tom Mahon said when he saw my coats, “They look a bit neat.” Every ounce of my own wardrobe is drape and I travel in business circles of the most conservative kind and have never had a quizzical look in thirty years.
So there is drape and there is drape. I saw a very well known journalist the other day in London wearing a 3 pc A&S suit in tweed that looked like meat hanging from bones. It was a bit dreadful and not at all what one, with a minimum of taste, would order from that prestigious firm. The writer is otherwise quite gifted and so was the suit.
Among the more recent English drapers there is a variety of possible styles. Hitch pere and fils, Mahon, Edwin DeBoise, Brian Russell, Mr. Hallberry and Colin Harvey were all cutters at A&S and each had his own interpretation of the look. There is the more fitted or “neat” drape look that I prefer and was made famous by the late Colin Harvey’s efforts for the current Prince of Wales. And there is the more ample form from other cutters.
I would rank Rubinacci in the “neat” drape category as there is nothing overly hanging, or splayed open about it. It looks comfortable and chic.
Your analysis of drape, and the kind of man who wears it, is otherwise a very good one and full of excellent insight.
Cheers
Michael Alden
I think that the difficulty I have with drape for business wear is that it is often accompanied by either drooping or rounded shoulders.
And if a Drape is additionally cut with any number of additional sins: overly large, slouchy, puffed up, sack-like, it can look particularly sloppy and unkempt.
Indeed, there is drape and then there is Drape as Alden writes. It is so easy to get it wrong even by the best tailors.
For example, I don’t find the rounded, egg shaped shoulder which Rubinacci makes attractive for a suit. Nor the drooping, extended shoulder which A&S makes.
Now, Rubinacci will tell you that his iconic shoulder is suitable for both business and sports wear. But I don’t agree with his interpretation.
In Naples, there is clearly a different shoulder for business wear and many tailors will make two shoulders: i) a soft, rounded shoulder with the pleating of the spalla camicia for sportswear and ii) a more padded, built up, less rounded, more square shoulder for formal wear.
And there is a reason for this: the stronger, squared off shoulder looks altogether more formal, put together and proper. Which shoulder would you choose for your dinner jacket? And so, for a business suit….
And while I certainly suspect that 90% of A&S production is for business wear, and their clientele want their drape for business wear, it appears to me that their Drape is inconsistent : their more successful coats seem to have more shoulder padding, less shoulder extension and are cut more leanly while those that are cut so loosely and sloppily to achieve drape, fail.
Take a look at the picture of the Duke of Windsor which Alden posted; that may be drape but the shoulder is certainly not weak nor ironed down flat, poor and lifeless. Indeed, it is neat Drape and the line of the coat is cut reasonably close to the body; The coat and trousers are outstanding!
The coat’s shoulder is actually quite square. The Drape is not exaggerated and not achieved through simply cutting a large coat with extra-wide shoulders which seems to generally be the A&S way today.
Scholte’s Drape cut is very different to what A&S cuts today and it appears that the drape is achieved in a very different way as well.
I’m not a technician but perhaps if you take a look at some of the pictures of drape below, you can help me identify what makes all of these drapes look so different, what makes some work and others not….
(thanks to all for the photo links. Some links are not working for me...perhaps someone knows how to fix them..?)
And if a Drape is additionally cut with any number of additional sins: overly large, slouchy, puffed up, sack-like, it can look particularly sloppy and unkempt.
Indeed, there is drape and then there is Drape as Alden writes. It is so easy to get it wrong even by the best tailors.
For example, I don’t find the rounded, egg shaped shoulder which Rubinacci makes attractive for a suit. Nor the drooping, extended shoulder which A&S makes.
Now, Rubinacci will tell you that his iconic shoulder is suitable for both business and sports wear. But I don’t agree with his interpretation.
In Naples, there is clearly a different shoulder for business wear and many tailors will make two shoulders: i) a soft, rounded shoulder with the pleating of the spalla camicia for sportswear and ii) a more padded, built up, less rounded, more square shoulder for formal wear.
And there is a reason for this: the stronger, squared off shoulder looks altogether more formal, put together and proper. Which shoulder would you choose for your dinner jacket? And so, for a business suit….
And while I certainly suspect that 90% of A&S production is for business wear, and their clientele want their drape for business wear, it appears to me that their Drape is inconsistent : their more successful coats seem to have more shoulder padding, less shoulder extension and are cut more leanly while those that are cut so loosely and sloppily to achieve drape, fail.
Take a look at the picture of the Duke of Windsor which Alden posted; that may be drape but the shoulder is certainly not weak nor ironed down flat, poor and lifeless. Indeed, it is neat Drape and the line of the coat is cut reasonably close to the body; The coat and trousers are outstanding!
The coat’s shoulder is actually quite square. The Drape is not exaggerated and not achieved through simply cutting a large coat with extra-wide shoulders which seems to generally be the A&S way today.
Scholte’s Drape cut is very different to what A&S cuts today and it appears that the drape is achieved in a very different way as well.
I’m not a technician but perhaps if you take a look at some of the pictures of drape below, you can help me identify what makes all of these drapes look so different, what makes some work and others not….
(thanks to all for the photo links. Some links are not working for me...perhaps someone knows how to fix them..?)
There are as many types of Neapolitan shoulder treatments as there are tailors and they incorporate drape to varying degrees.mafoofan wrote:Uppercase, would the cut of many non-Rubinacci Neapolitan tailors be considered 'drape' in either of the senses above? I was under the impression that, though they are typically soft garments, they tend to be relatively lean-fitting.
I don't feel out of place wearing my suits and jackets to work, although they have drape and law is a conservative field. I suppose I might feel different if most other lawyers were in suits most of the time, but that's not the case.
I think that any well made coat needs ‘drape’ otherwise it would just be a straight jacket.
Drape done well, in my view, is barely noticeable with the extra cloth in the chest and shoulder blades carefully added and then harmoniously fitted by the tailor to the client’s physique, it whispers rather than shouts…
…as opposed to a tailor simply building an overly large coat with big shoulder and artlessly, without regard to proportion or line, hanging the cloth from those large shoulders and calling that drape.
Ofcourse, everyone has their own idea as to attractiveness of various shoulder treatments, amount of drape, degree of softness, what looks good on them, what works, what doesn’t. Tastes differ!
I personally like a bit of a built up shoulder in a suit, rather than rounded, along with a bit more structure throughout the coat. Somewhere between Neapolitan slouch and London starch.
But obviously, there are many good examples of the Drape/ softer shoulder treatment looking good in a suit, among them your DB below, mafoofan.
Though I think, for example, that the shoulder of your DB from Rubinacci /Naples does not appear as round and ironed flat, nor the chest as puffed up, as what Rubinacci/Milan made for me. You be the judge from the photos.
Your shoulder , mafoofan, appears built up a bit , or supported, in the photos and also with a touch of rollino. I prefer this treatment which was made for you in Naples which I think looks altogether right for a suit.
Iammatt’s suits’ shoulders similarly appear a touch built up/ supported, rather than round.
I wonder, mafoofan: is your Rubinacci DB shoulder/chest different to your sports coats’ shoulder?
Here's a compilation of some photos of Neapolitan shoulders done for clients with varying degrees of drape and shoulder treatments. Spalla scesa, spalla convessa, spalla insellata, spalla camicia…there are many shoulder treatments in Naples and the diversity is wonderful.
For good measure, I’ve added a photo of drape from another school of tailoring: Caraceni’s/Rome treatment of the sports coat from this master of the minimalist, lean suit.
It’s interesting to compare the healthy amount of drape in the Caraceni glen check sports coat to the bare whisper of drape in blue coat which is more along the lines of Caraceni’s silhouette for a suit coat. But sport coat and suit coat do differ.
Finally, we end with the dead Neapolitan dog lying amid the splendor of Naples past.
LL member, Etutee, in his remarkable post on Drape and Summer Styles described the two styles of drape as they were presented in the 1930s.
The full "English drape" cut resembles the kind of drape that puts some men off today as it did then (see text below.) The "neat" drape coat, that we see on Windsor and Astaire, is called the London Lounge cut. This style traveled on the A&S time line through to a cutter named Colin Harvey, now deceased, and that is where I saw it and appreciated it. Subsequent cutters at the fabled firm have taken the full English drape path again and its appeal is a question of personal taste.
Let's listen to Etutee:
"Perhaps nothing illustrates this point as well as the introduction of the English Drape to America several seasons ago. It was intended to achieve a certain definite effect, and was supposedly an interpretation of authentic English clothing. Patterning their clothes after the English, American tailors put a definite drape in the chest of the coat. The shoulders were made wide and square with wrinkles at the sleeve head.*[/i]
*Take note of these changes. It is of paramount importance that the original and the derived effect are differentiated and properly understood.
The waist line was pulled in, and the coat was tight about the hips. The greatest point of merit of the particular model was the fact that it inaugurated soft construction clothes in America. Unfortunately, however, many American tailors failed to get the effect they had tried so hard to achieve. The coat was exaggerated, and it didn’t bring out the right, nonchalant, smart appearance of the English custom coat after all. It showed too much of it, and the result was far from being successful. The illustration below* shows the English drape as it was introduced to America, and it also shows why manufacturers and retailers alike will admit that it was undoubtedly the hardest thing to sell. Consumers would not buy wrinkles in clothes then, and they will not buy them in clothes today.
Alright to break away for a moment and explain the much essential details which are a feature of this cut so as you are reading, you have a clear idea what they are referring to. Kindly Read last post for further details (AA/Esky Vol. II No. IV April 06’ Section I)
AA / ESKY VOL. II NO. IV
1. One of the most important aspect of the English drape jacket is the much needed natural shoulder. This can be done in a variety of ways to effect different looks. There is no correct or incorrect style here… the only incorrectness if there would be… is excessive padding. Shoulders here are in a concave like pitch and show a very slight rope effect at the end.
2. Sleeves have a slight “puff” effect to them at the sleeve head not to mention the extra wrinkles that are caused by the excess cloth that is fed through a smaller armhole.
3 & 4. The most essential feature of the drape jacket is obviously “the drape” effect observable at chest region. In the early English drape models (as you will see through the course of this article) the drape was very obvious and well articulated. Maybe too much… and the result was that the smart dressed set… sort of back tracked and eliminated the extra fullness at the chest, yet still kept the ones at the shoulder blades for a comfortable movement.
5. The waist suppression was mostly a result of the natural drop from swelled chest and was not greatly done in itself (which usually results in an hourglass silhouette)… something that is certainly not desirable. This topic of waist suppression is a broad one and will be covered with the principles of balance in a jacket. The “skirt” of the jacket is often tapered and sort of moves inward in a “convex” manner rather than flair out. This effect certainly caught on heavily sometime after mid-30s and remained ever popular with the smart dressers. (See AA/Esky Vol. II No. III section I for a detailed explanation).
Yet the soft construction is an ideal thing, and it is one of the modern improvements in clothing. It finds real favor in London. Fashion observers have spent many months in London in the places where the well-dressed Englishmen congregate. They have found the soft construction English lounge suit worn in London by men considered the world over as being well-dressed, and they have brought this fashion to America for its first appearance. The tailor by appointment to the Prince of Wales is actually responsible for this new mode of West End tailoring and other well-known West End tailoring shops have adopted his procedure in the cutting and making of clothes.
On the opposite page is a diagram of the model which is important in London this year. It is a single breasted coat in the two button peak lapel style,* well cut away in the front.
*See Vol. II No. IV Section I for an illustartion of this.
The coat is built on natural lines, and is cut on the long side. The shoulders arc natural, having a slight puff at the sleeve heads, and the sleeves taper definitely to the cuffs where there arc four small buttons. Instead of having the extreme fullness in the chest where it is just excess material that serves no purpose, this jacket is constructed to give natural ease and an athletic appearance to the wearer. There is a small natural break in the front at each shoulder such as all well-tailored clothes should have, but under the arms and chest there is enough excess material to give fullness and a much larger appearance to the chest of the coat. This eliminates the necessity of tightening the waistline, of course, for the waistline is quite natural. The same balance is carried out to the back of the coat, too, so that at all times the wearer has a broad, athletic look, and yet his clothes do not have an exaggerated appearance. And what is most important of all is the fact that this particular method of tailoring is adaptable to all clothes.
On the same page where the English drape is illustrated, there is a detail sketch of the new London lounge which shows how effective English-tailored fullness of the coat can be. While it is true that this coat is buttoned on the bottom button, the tailoring itself remains unchanged, and the shadows show definitely where the fullness lies. This loose-fitting coat is the model worn by the well-dressed Englishman, and its unusual shape gives the proper effect to make its wearer look well dressed at ail times. Comfort is one of the primary factors, and perhaps the fact that there are no purposeless wrinkles is one of the greatest advantages of this coat. The model is adaptable to every type of individual and reveals, for the first time, the secret of the West End tailors. It will be noted throughout this issue that the various fashion sketches call particular attention to the fullness under the chest and arms. This is a feature of great importance, and the sketches of the London Portfolio, done in color, definitely emphasize how it is carried out in various models.
1. The shoulder is the same is Drape, no major difference here both the natural line and the soft effect is retained.
2. Note that the drape in the chest is reduced as opposed to the pervious illustration. This is done to “clean” out the chest of excessive fullness, which was (even though very smart) still not liked by many people due to the resulting “wrinkles” per se. Yet, despite the removal of excessive drape from the front, the fullness at the back was kept intact as it certainly allowed for a free arm movement.
3. The effect at the waist or “suppression” seems less drastic than the pervious model. Note that there is not change at the actual level of waist point. All of this is resulting from the increased or decreased “swelled” chest that is a hallmark of drape jacket.
4. The skirt, following the over all natural lines is not flared out as in certain militaristic or equestrian silhouettes. The overall lines are rather close to the body but not a “tight” fit.
5. The buttons stance in the original jackets of the era was slightly lower, certainly more so than the current Neapolitan incarnations or modern Savile row. This buttons stance is certainly not written in stone but for the purpose of maintaining aesthetical value (& also pragmatic) it should be neither too high… and certainly not too low as to suggest a low-slung effect observable in DB jackets from 80s.
The tailcoat offers no exception to the adaptability of this method of tailoring, for actually such fullness is particularly well suited to it, and it adds much to the smartness of the coat itself. The tailcoat model featured in this issue exemplifies this fact, and it will be noted that the coat is actually, cut larger under the chest. This coat has even more fullness from the shoulder blades in the back to the waist, where the excess amount of material is placed. The coat itself gives the much desired effect which is the main note of English clothes. The coat actually follows the natural lines of the body, allowing comfort at needed points. It gives as much as smartness to the stout man as it does to the thin man, and is certain to find favor with well dressed men in general."
Cheers
M Alden
The full "English drape" cut resembles the kind of drape that puts some men off today as it did then (see text below.) The "neat" drape coat, that we see on Windsor and Astaire, is called the London Lounge cut. This style traveled on the A&S time line through to a cutter named Colin Harvey, now deceased, and that is where I saw it and appreciated it. Subsequent cutters at the fabled firm have taken the full English drape path again and its appeal is a question of personal taste.
Let's listen to Etutee:
"Perhaps nothing illustrates this point as well as the introduction of the English Drape to America several seasons ago. It was intended to achieve a certain definite effect, and was supposedly an interpretation of authentic English clothing. Patterning their clothes after the English, American tailors put a definite drape in the chest of the coat. The shoulders were made wide and square with wrinkles at the sleeve head.*[/i]
*Take note of these changes. It is of paramount importance that the original and the derived effect are differentiated and properly understood.
The waist line was pulled in, and the coat was tight about the hips. The greatest point of merit of the particular model was the fact that it inaugurated soft construction clothes in America. Unfortunately, however, many American tailors failed to get the effect they had tried so hard to achieve. The coat was exaggerated, and it didn’t bring out the right, nonchalant, smart appearance of the English custom coat after all. It showed too much of it, and the result was far from being successful. The illustration below* shows the English drape as it was introduced to America, and it also shows why manufacturers and retailers alike will admit that it was undoubtedly the hardest thing to sell. Consumers would not buy wrinkles in clothes then, and they will not buy them in clothes today.
Alright to break away for a moment and explain the much essential details which are a feature of this cut so as you are reading, you have a clear idea what they are referring to. Kindly Read last post for further details (AA/Esky Vol. II No. IV April 06’ Section I)
AA / ESKY VOL. II NO. IV
1. One of the most important aspect of the English drape jacket is the much needed natural shoulder. This can be done in a variety of ways to effect different looks. There is no correct or incorrect style here… the only incorrectness if there would be… is excessive padding. Shoulders here are in a concave like pitch and show a very slight rope effect at the end.
2. Sleeves have a slight “puff” effect to them at the sleeve head not to mention the extra wrinkles that are caused by the excess cloth that is fed through a smaller armhole.
3 & 4. The most essential feature of the drape jacket is obviously “the drape” effect observable at chest region. In the early English drape models (as you will see through the course of this article) the drape was very obvious and well articulated. Maybe too much… and the result was that the smart dressed set… sort of back tracked and eliminated the extra fullness at the chest, yet still kept the ones at the shoulder blades for a comfortable movement.
5. The waist suppression was mostly a result of the natural drop from swelled chest and was not greatly done in itself (which usually results in an hourglass silhouette)… something that is certainly not desirable. This topic of waist suppression is a broad one and will be covered with the principles of balance in a jacket. The “skirt” of the jacket is often tapered and sort of moves inward in a “convex” manner rather than flair out. This effect certainly caught on heavily sometime after mid-30s and remained ever popular with the smart dressers. (See AA/Esky Vol. II No. III section I for a detailed explanation).
Yet the soft construction is an ideal thing, and it is one of the modern improvements in clothing. It finds real favor in London. Fashion observers have spent many months in London in the places where the well-dressed Englishmen congregate. They have found the soft construction English lounge suit worn in London by men considered the world over as being well-dressed, and they have brought this fashion to America for its first appearance. The tailor by appointment to the Prince of Wales is actually responsible for this new mode of West End tailoring and other well-known West End tailoring shops have adopted his procedure in the cutting and making of clothes.
On the opposite page is a diagram of the model which is important in London this year. It is a single breasted coat in the two button peak lapel style,* well cut away in the front.
*See Vol. II No. IV Section I for an illustartion of this.
The coat is built on natural lines, and is cut on the long side. The shoulders arc natural, having a slight puff at the sleeve heads, and the sleeves taper definitely to the cuffs where there arc four small buttons. Instead of having the extreme fullness in the chest where it is just excess material that serves no purpose, this jacket is constructed to give natural ease and an athletic appearance to the wearer. There is a small natural break in the front at each shoulder such as all well-tailored clothes should have, but under the arms and chest there is enough excess material to give fullness and a much larger appearance to the chest of the coat. This eliminates the necessity of tightening the waistline, of course, for the waistline is quite natural. The same balance is carried out to the back of the coat, too, so that at all times the wearer has a broad, athletic look, and yet his clothes do not have an exaggerated appearance. And what is most important of all is the fact that this particular method of tailoring is adaptable to all clothes.
On the same page where the English drape is illustrated, there is a detail sketch of the new London lounge which shows how effective English-tailored fullness of the coat can be. While it is true that this coat is buttoned on the bottom button, the tailoring itself remains unchanged, and the shadows show definitely where the fullness lies. This loose-fitting coat is the model worn by the well-dressed Englishman, and its unusual shape gives the proper effect to make its wearer look well dressed at ail times. Comfort is one of the primary factors, and perhaps the fact that there are no purposeless wrinkles is one of the greatest advantages of this coat. The model is adaptable to every type of individual and reveals, for the first time, the secret of the West End tailors. It will be noted throughout this issue that the various fashion sketches call particular attention to the fullness under the chest and arms. This is a feature of great importance, and the sketches of the London Portfolio, done in color, definitely emphasize how it is carried out in various models.
1. The shoulder is the same is Drape, no major difference here both the natural line and the soft effect is retained.
2. Note that the drape in the chest is reduced as opposed to the pervious illustration. This is done to “clean” out the chest of excessive fullness, which was (even though very smart) still not liked by many people due to the resulting “wrinkles” per se. Yet, despite the removal of excessive drape from the front, the fullness at the back was kept intact as it certainly allowed for a free arm movement.
3. The effect at the waist or “suppression” seems less drastic than the pervious model. Note that there is not change at the actual level of waist point. All of this is resulting from the increased or decreased “swelled” chest that is a hallmark of drape jacket.
4. The skirt, following the over all natural lines is not flared out as in certain militaristic or equestrian silhouettes. The overall lines are rather close to the body but not a “tight” fit.
5. The buttons stance in the original jackets of the era was slightly lower, certainly more so than the current Neapolitan incarnations or modern Savile row. This buttons stance is certainly not written in stone but for the purpose of maintaining aesthetical value (& also pragmatic) it should be neither too high… and certainly not too low as to suggest a low-slung effect observable in DB jackets from 80s.
The tailcoat offers no exception to the adaptability of this method of tailoring, for actually such fullness is particularly well suited to it, and it adds much to the smartness of the coat itself. The tailcoat model featured in this issue exemplifies this fact, and it will be noted that the coat is actually, cut larger under the chest. This coat has even more fullness from the shoulder blades in the back to the waist, where the excess amount of material is placed. The coat itself gives the much desired effect which is the main note of English clothes. The coat actually follows the natural lines of the body, allowing comfort at needed points. It gives as much as smartness to the stout man as it does to the thin man, and is certain to find favor with well dressed men in general."
Cheers
M Alden
As always, an illuminating analysis, Uppercase. To answer your question: the shoulders of my double-breasted suit jacket appears to be constructed in the same way as that of my single-breasted odd jackets. There is no padding or wadding at all. However, the sleevehead does 'puff' a little bit more. This effect varies between all my jackets and appears to settle over time. Now, the shoulders of my double-breasted suit appear rounder and the transition from shoulder to sleeve is smoother. I had only worn the suit a couple of times before taking the photo you posted.
I remember the Rubinacci Milan suit you wore in Chicago. I thought it was very nice, but you are rght: it appears distinctly different from what the Naples shop puts out. If I recall correctly, I had the impression of a much leaner cut.
You showed me another jacket, by another Neapolitan tailor. It was very beautiful, and far more unstructured and softer than anything I have from Rubinacci. I admit to being slightly jealous, but you are right: I don't think I'd feel comfortable wearing a buisness suit cut like that. Anyway, it just goes to show how much variance there can be, even in a single genre.
I remember the Rubinacci Milan suit you wore in Chicago. I thought it was very nice, but you are rght: it appears distinctly different from what the Naples shop puts out. If I recall correctly, I had the impression of a much leaner cut.
You showed me another jacket, by another Neapolitan tailor. It was very beautiful, and far more unstructured and softer than anything I have from Rubinacci. I admit to being slightly jealous, but you are right: I don't think I'd feel comfortable wearing a buisness suit cut like that. Anyway, it just goes to show how much variance there can be, even in a single genre.
And how utterly foolish it is to make sweeping statements about its usefulness or aesthetic charm.mafoofan wrote:Anyway, it just goes to show how much variance there can be, even in a single genre.
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