About a shoulder line

[Alload]

Going through the delighting posts on the London Lounge, I found this particular picture:



I love the shoulder line on these two suits: the shape seems a little bit convex and the end of the shoulder is clearly highlighted.

Could you please le met know if this style has a particular name or origin ? And whether the convexity is real or simply created by the viewpoint of the camera ?

Thank you!

[Greger]

Concave. Somebody posted a photo of a Tailor and Cutter page from 10 October 1969 a while back on one of these threads or some other forum that shows a couple really nice coats with these type of shoulders. The fit is better, too.

It is a shoulder style that comes and goes. The style has nothing to do with fit.

[alden]

Alload

Welcome to the LL.

This is a "pagoda" shoulder. It is most often used in women's couture. It is a highly stylized shoulder that requires mountains of padding. We see it in some French bespoke tailoring of the past combined with a narrow, close to the body silhouette. Many find the look a bit studied.

Cheers

Michael

[jefferyd]

It is one of, if not the most, difficult shoulders to execute properly and owes its shape more to the manipulation than the padding; in fact, properly done, it can be executed with very minimal padding, though most who like this shoulder prefer to have some. The shape is supposed to follow the natural curve between collar bone and shoulder point. Quite popular in the seventies but lately out of fashion, it is trying to make a comeback; some of the RTW makers who have shown it recently have been Alexander McQueen, Tom Ford, Carlo Pignatelli, and an extreme (though well crafted) version by Bottega Veneta.

[storeynicholas]

Bill Matthews, formerly of Davies & Son, made my shoulder-line like this and, although I didn't know the name until today (thank you MA), I have always liked it - and have never noticed any real over-wadding. It just seems to follow the shoulder-line, as you say - but creates a sharp effect. I remember the very first suit that he made for me, in a plain charcoal grey worsted - very ordinary - but not - and everyone was agog - over 20 years ago now! Art work. it really was - and worn to death!
NJS

[radicaldog]

I believe this kind of shoulder is sometimes 'bottleneck' (a collo di bottiglia) in Italian. It certainly is dashing; in fact, perhaps too dashing.

[jefferyd]

Also known as a spalla insellata. It was the holy grail when I was learning but it thankfully fell out of favour.

[Alload]

Thank you for all these answers.

I just wanted to say that this shape would be called "convex" in mathematics, therefore I am a bit surprised that you call it "concave". Maybe the vocabulary is different in tailoring, this is a quite an intersting fact

[alden]

It is one of, if not the most, difficult shoulders to execute properly and owes its shape more to the manipulation than the padding; in fact, properly done, it can be executed with very minimal padding

Very true and I have seen marvelous examples of this shoulder made with zero padding in Naples. The trouble is that the shoulder made the wearer look like an overgrown elf.

Cheers

M Alden

[Minh]

Elegance is a form of balance. No single detail should draw excessive attention to itself. Consider the most elegant of outfits -- the dinner jacket. It has just two colors, black and white. Everything is simple and classical. The viewer sees the entire outfit as a balanced and unified whole.

Imagine if the wearer replaced his black bow tie with a red one, and wore pants with a gold stripe down the side. Suddenly the balance is thrown off. The viewer immediately focuses on the red bow tie and the gold stripe. The impression is not of a whole outfit but of separate parts, with two of those pieces -- the tie and stripe -- overwhelming the rest. The effect is jarring.

It is important to avoid visual noise not only in color, but in cut. Pagoda shoulders and their frequent partner, roped shoulders, shout for attention. Elegance is much more subdued. Each detail is quiet but combines into a single piece of music.

Cary Grant is exemplary on this point. If you look at most of his suits, you won't find pagoda or roped shoulders, ticket or slanted pockets, extremely wide or narrow lapels, velvet collars, contrast colored stitching, or any number of other loud features. What you will find are simple details, perfect fit, and unsurpassed elegance.

Some examples from Grant:

http://www.doctormacro1.info/Images/Gra ... ef)_02.jpg

http://www.doctormacro1.info/Images/Gra ... lk)_01.jpg

http://www.doctormacro1.info/Images/Gra ... us)_09.jpg

http://www.doctormacro1.info/Images/Gra ... us)_11.jpg

[alden]

Minh

You have written an excellent post as usual. I very much agree with your analysis and you won't find a pagoda shoulder (convex) or a "spalla in salata" (flatter than a pagoda) on my clothes.

Elegance is a form of balance

Elegance is balance.

No single detail should draw excessive attention

I agree but the blond detailing in the first picture draws a lot of my attention.

http://www.doctormacro1.info/Images/Gra ... ef)_02.jpg

Cheers

Michael

[formby]

Thank you for all these answers.

I just wanted to say that this shape would be called "convex" in mathematics, therefore I am a bit surprised that you call it "concave". Maybe the vocabulary is different in tailoring, this is a quite an intersting fact

You are mistaken, in mathematics that shape is concave, i.e. it curves inwards or into the body. If the shoulder was convex it would be egg shaped. The best way too discriminate between the terms convex and concave is to look at the last syllable of the word concave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concave

[Alload]

I was wrong in fact, thanks for pointing me the Wikipedia article.

In fact I was looking at the shape of the shoulder as a function rather than as a set. Anyway you made me discover the definition of convexity for sets. Thank you!

[marcelo]

I had mistakenly thought that the "pagoda" or "concave" shoulders were a product of the 50's or 60's. But it seems they are much older. The advertisement bellow stems from the Aurora Daily Express, and was published as early as 1901 (24th January).

[old henry]

I dont know what they call this shoulder , but I like it very much . One way to do this shoulder is to cut the shoulder seam on the paper pattern straight as an arrow , along with reinforcing the shoulder in the canvas with a few extra layers of hair cloth going up-grain and cross-grain . It can be done with very little pad in the shoulder .. To me it is very 1930s