Polo/Chesterfield overcoat

[angelo]

Costi wrote:"......"Some even wear it over a dinner suit (debatable in terms of historical correctness, but not necessarily tasteless - especially when travelling........"

Costi,
here are two examples from Esquire magazines (left from '36,right from '39) showing that a polo overcoat can be ,in a very elegant way ,matched with a dinner suit.
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[Frog in Suit]

Thank you all for the information re: Johnson. I never succeeded in visiting his house, as it was closed both times I went there (poor planning on my part). I do not remember the satue of Hodge, but my attempted visits probably predate its erection. I do not recall Johnson's statue outside Saint Clement Dane, although it must have been there.

Fog in Suit

[storeynicholas]

Thank you all for the information re: Johnson. I never succeeded in visiting his house, as it was closed both times I went there (poor planning on my part). I do not remember the satue of Hodge, but my attempted visits probably predate its erection. I do not recall Johnson's statue outside Saint Clement Dane, although it must have been there.

Fog in Suit

The house is open at odd times and you need to inquire. There is still a real cat kept there. The Johnson statue is not very big at all and you would have to realize that it is there - but up close you see that it includes some reliefs which are interesting - including references to Mrs Thrale.
NJS

[Costi]

Thank you, Angelo, for these excellent pictures. On a sidenote, I think the midnight blue shawl collar DB dinner suit on the right looks so much better in its informality with the Polo overcoat than the other one (although, as Sator often argues, no dinner suit is really formal). Of course, when I referred to historical correctness I had in mind more remote times, closer to the dinner suit's origins and before the Polo overcoat became so fashionable.
Also note that the sketch on the left appears to depict a gentleman in a particular location: leaning against a rail on a ship. Have you got any information on the location of the other one?

[storeynicholas]

In the film Sunset Boulevard, starring Gloria Swanson and William Holden, Norma Desmond buys Joe a lot of clothes, including a polo coat, which he wears with full evening dress, when he escapes from Norma Desmond on New Year's Eve - it is camel hair because he declined the vicuna even though 'the lady's paying'
NJS

[NCW]

Doesn't a Chesterfield take a velvet collar on top as well?

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

I am clearly not the authority here, but there seem to be plenty of instances where it does not, in AA, as well as elsewhere (e.g. Henry Poole):

[storeynicholas]

Surely, a velvet collar is optional - I think that it looks better on DB than SB - just a personal view. Here is a 'still 'of Clive Brook (in black tie and British warm top coat), with Marlene Dietrich, from the film Shanghai Express.
NJS

[storeynicholas]

Surely, a velvet collar is optional - I think that it looks better on DB than SB - just a personal view. Here is a 'still 'of Clive Brook (in black tie and British warm top coat), with Marlene Dietrich, from the film Shanghai Express.


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NJS[/img]

[RWS]

I can't discern the velvet collar in that tiny picture, NJS; but I sure can see the fur!

[Costi]

In fact, we can hardly see Miss Dietrich in the picture.
Seriously, it is a great picture and it goes to show how military cut overcoats (Guard's Coat, British Warm) were worn with (semi)formal evening dress.

[storeynicholas]

I can't discern the velvet collar in that tiny picture, NJS; but I sure can see the fur!

I didn't mean that there was a velvet collar on this one but I can see how the confusion arose! Here Brook is in a British warm (no velvet collar) bt it is a good example of a light-coloured top coat with black tie evening dress - and there was another thread on British warms - but as this thread is up and running I just put it here. It is a small picture - I'll see what I can do.
NJS

[storeynicholas]

In fact, we can hardly see Miss Dietrich in the picture.
Seriously, it is a great picture and it goes to show how military cut overcoats (Guard's Coat, British Warm) were worn with (semi)formal evening dress.

I'll try and get a bigger version - it is a seriously good picture - in fact, from a great film.
NJS

[Costi]

Dear Nicholas, I didn't mean to complain about the size of the picture, I am very grateful for all the excellent (and some rare) pictures you post, it was just a hint to the size of the fur collar that RWS noticed, which overwhelms the wearer (and it's not just ANY wearer...).
I like the idea of wearing a non-formal overcoat over a dinner suit, it de-emphasizes the perception of it as "formal" dress. I think this makes it easier to take a dinner suit to a good restaurant, for instance, these days, wearing it in a degage manner without appearing "overdressed". If you are not dining very informally, or going to a concert in the evening, why wear a lounge suit rather than a dinner suit, like so many of our contemporaries do? It's not difficult to wear, it doesn't require a stiff bib or collar, or a difficult to maintain white pique waistcoat, and a pair of plain black calf oxfords will do just fine. It is a pleasure to look at a restaurant lounge where men wear proper evening clothes and women wear elegant evening dresses, simply because they chose to go out in the evening, not because of some special event. Why don't we take the dinner suit off the pedestal of formality where it sits today and offer each other this pleasure more often?

[Jordan Marc]

As to whether a Chesterfield should have a velvet collar or not, Bernard Weatherill (my tailor way back when) had the most sensible answer to the question: "Squire, after the collar wears out is when velvet is used for a replacement." Makes sense to me.

JMB

[storeynicholas]

Dear Nicholas, I didn't mean to complain about the size of the picture, I am very grateful for all the excellent (and some rare) pictures you post, it was just a hint to the size of the fur collar that RWS noticed, which overwhelms the wearer (and it's not just ANY wearer...).
I like the idea of wearing a non-formal overcoat over a dinner suit, it de-emphasizes the perception of it as "formal" dress. I think this makes it easier to take a dinner suit to a good restaurant, for instance, these days, wearing it in a degage manner without appearing "overdressed". If you are not dining very informally, or going to a concert in the evening, why wear a lounge suit rather than a dinner suit, like so many of our contemporaries do? It's not difficult to wear, it doesn't require a stiff bib or collar, or a difficult to maintain white pique waistcoat, and a pair of plain black calf oxfords will do just fine. It is a pleasure to look at a restaurant lounge where men wear proper evening clothes and women wear elegant evening dresses, simply because they chose to go out in the evening, not because of some special event. Why don't we take the dinner suit off the pedestal of formality where it sits today and offer each other this pleasure more often?

Dear Costi,
i didn't think that you were complaining. I am getting a proper size - actually, it turns out that the Brook coat is in fact a British warm military coat - as it has pips on the epaulettes and Brook's role in the film was military - so he is wearing it over a mess jacket and black tie. I have also found a Holden 'still' from Sunset Boulevard - I'll put them up soon.
NJS