A Near All-Purpose Winter Topcoat

[storeynicholas]

On the question of a colour for town and country - I think that black is a colour which couldw straddle both, depending on the style of coat. I mentioned this somewhere else - its Churchill wearing the same type of black top coat in two very different environments. Now, the style of coat would need some up-dating and my own version of it doesn't make it into the country as it is too structured but look at these pictures:


The first is WSC with his son Randolph and Coco Chanel in the field - from their ages this has to be well before WWII. The coat is here buttoned high to the top and falls away loosely, with concealed buttons or clips.




Here is the same type of coat in a town environment at 10 Downing Street. From the presence of Lloyd George and FE Smith it will be in the period leading up to the division of Ireland in 1922. The coat is buttoned lower down but it is the same type of coat.



However, as I say, it would need some up-dating - it is too long for the modern world. Sorry that the pictures aren't great.

On zips and buttons for lining - isn't having several metres of zips something of a hostage to fortune? They do get caught and snag?
NJS

[RWS]

. . . . the fact that you are not at home, with your complete (?) wardrobe at hand . . . .

Is there such a thing as a "complete wardrobe"? Please, someone stop me before I commission another coat!

[storeynicholas]

. . . . the fact that you are not at home, with your complete (?) wardrobe at hand . . . .

Is there such a thing as a "complete wardrobe"? Please, someone stop me before I commission another coat!

Or another book for your library - they're never complete which is part of the great fascination - if the wardrobe were complete then we would lose a lot of interest in it all. It's all the possibilities that keep us interested.
NJS

[RWS]

. . . . [The coat] would need some up-dating - it is too long for the modern world.

I generally prefer long overcoats (though, as I am tall and slender, they mightn't always look the best on me). I still remember with regret that my father, before he gave me a handsome Harris-tweed topcoat made for him in Germany in the 1950s, had a tailor take off the bottom six inches or so -- that I might be more fashionably dressed. Ah, Fashion! What we suffer at thy hands!

. . . . On zips and buttons for lining - isn't having several metres of zips something of a hostage to fortune? They do get caught and snag? . . . .

I prefer buttons, in part as I remember the utility of the buttoned-out lining of an old Burberry. But a good zipper (some American-made brass ones -- yes, a few things are still made in the United States -- seem virtually indestructible) can be just as useful and more convenient; as it will lie flatter than buttons, I might suppose that a zipper could present a smoother, finer appearance, as well.

[Costi]

. . . . the fact that you are not at home, with your complete (?) wardrobe at hand . . . .

Is there such a thing as a "complete wardrobe"? Please, someone stop me before I commission another coat!

Or another book for your library - they're never complete which is part of the great fascination - if the wardrobe were complete then we would lose a lot of interest in it all. It's all the possibilities that keep us interested.
NJS

An excellent development of that humble question mark...
A consummate wardrobe is one to which nothing new can be added; which means we can only speak good of its owner.

[radicaldog]

I am currently considering a polo coat/Ulster as well. I'd have it made up just like Prince Charles', but with a fully functioning storm collar ('collo doppio uso', in Italian). The natural cloth choice would be camel hair, though I worry that it might be a little banal for that very reason. But I can live with that -- better to err on the side of classic. At any rate that coat-bespeaking intention still leaves me with two questions, both related to points addressed by various posters in this thread:

1. I wouldn't like the coat to be made of very smooth cloth. My tailor (a provincial Italian tailor, i.e. all I can afford at this stage in my life) could only show me one swatch of 100% camel hair overcoating (Scabal or Drapers, I think), and it was what he called 'short-haired camel hair' ('cammello a pelo corto'), i.e. a relatively smoothly finished cloth. He claimed that was the 'real' camel hair. I've no idea what exactly that could mean, but I still think it would be more suitable for a blazer than for an overcoat, so I ended up not commissioning the garment. Did I make a mistake?

2. This point is about the versatility of the coat. We've all seen numerous AA and Esquire illustrations showing men wearing polo coats over their evening wear (dinner suits etc.). Do you reckon that was a passing 30's or 40's fad, or is it still acceptable?

[storeynicholas]

I am currently considering a polo coat/Ulster as well. I'd have it made up just like Prince Charles', but with a fully functioning storm collar ('collo doppio uso', in Italian). The natural cloth choice would be camel hair, though I worry that it might be a little banal for that very reason. But I can live with that -- better to err on the side of classic. At any rate that coat-bespeaking intention still leaves me with two questions, both related to points addressed by various posters in this thread:

1. I wouldn't like the coat to be made of very smooth cloth. My tailor (a provincial Italian tailor, i.e. all I can afford at this stage in my life) could only show me one swatch of 100% camel hair overcoating (Scabal or Drapers, I think), and it was what he called 'short-haired camel hair' ('cammello a pelo corto'), i.e. a relatively smoothly finished cloth. He claimed that was the 'real' camel hair. I've no idea what exactly that could mean, but I still think it would be more suitable for a blazer than for an overcoat, so I ended up not commissioning the garment. Did I make a mistake?

2. This point is about the versatility of the coat. We've all seen numerous AA and Esquire illustrations showing men wearing polo coats over their evening wear (dinner suits etc.). Do you reckon that was a passing 30's or 40's fad, or is it still acceptable?

1. If you weren't happy and convinced, how could your decision be a mistake? and there's always tomorrow.

2. It isn't the ideal evening coat but do you (does anyone) wear evening dress often enough to worry about this too much?
NJS

[radicaldog]

Thanks for your thoughts, Storeynicholas.

1. If you weren't happy and convinced, how could your decision be a mistake? and there's always tomorrow.

I suppose you're right, yet I'm not quite sure whether the sort of 'hairy' camel hair (excuse the goofiness) coating I'm after even exists. Perhaps the short-haired one will get hairier over time? See, I would like it to be almost as coarse as a loden coat! Well, not quite that coarse, but going in that direction.

2. It isn't the ideal evening coat but do you (does anyone) wear evening dress often enough to worry about this too much?

Yes, I hardly ever wear black tie, let alone white tie. But what about a cocktail party (say) requiring dark and dressy lounge suits? Wouldn't the camel hair and camel-coloured overcoat be too informal or too much of a daytime garment?

[storeynicholas]

Thanks for your thoughts, Storeynicholas.

1. If you weren't happy and convinced, how could your decision be a mistake? and there's always tomorrow.

I suppose you're right, yet I'm not quite sure whether the sort of 'hairy' camel hair (excuse the goofiness) coating I'm after even exists. Perhaps the short-haired one will get hairier over time? See, I would like it to be almost as coarse as a loden coat! Well, not quite that coarse, but going in that direction.

2. It isn't the ideal evening coat but do you (does anyone) wear evening dress often enough to worry about this too much?

Yes, I hardly ever wear black tie, let alone white tie. But what about a cocktail party (say) requiring dark and dressy lounge suits? Wouldn't the camel hair and camel-coloured overcoat be too informal or too much of a daytime garment?

1. There certainly is a rough finish camel hair so why not ask some cloth merchants or see whether the LL Cloth Club has anything in this line.

2. As long as you don't intend to wear the top coat indoors, you will, surely, be OK. It's a neutral colour - it's hardly as though you're going in tartan plaid.
NJS

[radicaldog]

Fair enough, Storeynicholas, and thanks again. No camel hair overcoatings in the LL cloth club pages, alas. I'll try to source the material next time I'm in London, even though my tailor isn't too keen on working with the customers' own fabric.

[RWS]

My own polo (which, in a pinch, I've worn instead of the Chesterfield over evening dress; I'm waiting for Michael Alden's development of a pattern for the -- what should we call it? "paddock coat"? "frock overcoat"? -- dark blue topcoat, to take it to a tailor), RD, is of a camel's hair about as rough as good loden. The overcoating was, five or six years ago, in H&S's swatches, I think.

[RWS]

. . . . the fact that you are not at home, with your complete (?) wardrobe at hand . . . .

Is there such a thing as a "complete wardrobe"? Please, someone stop me before I commission another coat!

Or another book for your library - they're never complete . . . .

Ah, the definitive answer! No, there's always need for another book -- or several. I should, perhaps, stop working so that I may be certain of reading all that is in my library. But if I stopped working, I wouldn't be able to afford to buy another book . . . .

[alden]

what are members' views on the configuration of a near all-purpose, modern, winter topcoat - for town, country, day, evening, formal and informal?

I think you have to exclude country from the statement. Firstly, a good tweed coat is much more suitable for country climes than an overcoat especially if you are doing any walking in the woods where the length of an OC can be cumbersome. The country OC, if you must have one, is a raglan made of stout tweed.

The most practical OC for the rest of your proposition would be a dark gray SB.

Cheers

M Alden

[storeynicholas]

Well, here is my version, for morning, noon and night; in town, over: town lounge suit, morning suit, DJ or tails and it will even go in country towns - however, unlike Churchill's less structured coat earlier in this thread, it would not really pass in the field. I agree with MA that a tough tweed Raglan is the thing for the country. The photograph was taken by Mrs Norman Parkinson (or was it Lady Parkinson?) - anyhow, not by the master photographer. But the coat was made by a master cutter (and his team) - Bill Matthews (retired), formerly of Davies & Son; it is dated 8th September 1998 and is made of a black wool and cashmere mix (weight - forgotten - but heavy enough to make cloakroom attendants / hat check girls wince), lined with black satin; the buttons are black horn; it has fold-back cloth cuffs and 4 cuff buttons (all functioning) and a Persian lamb shawl collar/lapels; there are 2 sloping side pockets and a ticket pocket on the right. When I wear it, I feel as I look - very pleased!! One might wonder why I brought it to Rio de Janeiro, when many more useful clothes are in storage 7,000 miles away. It's because this coat was a childhood dream come true and I didn't want it lost at sea; it fits me; it's very comfortable; I feel comfortable in it and, although the fur might be an unusual feature, these days, the overall design is a timeless classic (it came straight out of Thornton's) and, for me, it is totally irreplaceable. I am sure that it could be remade by another master - but it wouldn't be the same - and it has to see me out:


[img][img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg55 ... opcoat.jpg[/img]

NJS

[alden]

NJS

A very lovely coat. Thanks for the picture.

It reminds me a bit of the Windsor coat sold at auction in NY.



Cheers

M Alden