Black brogue

[NCW]

I don't know if this specific discussion has happened before, but to all the black brogue haters here, explain this:

.

I do not know in what context this originally came, but it seems to be offering the shoe as a legitimate option.

[marcelo]

Dear NCW,
“black brogue haters”? I confess the concept is utterly new to me. And what is more interesting: I spent the whole day with a pair of black full brogue just like the one depicted above. They are now peacefully resting in a pair of nice cedar shoe-trees. I will try and post a picture of the ensemble within the next days.

[storeynicholas]

As far as I know, all the good makers offer black brogues.
NJS

[Jordan Marc]

Hmm, first I ever heard of anyone disliking brogues, let alone hating them. The first pair of bespoke shoes I commissioned John Lobb to make me were full brogue lace-ups in black box calf. Among other shoes ordered subsequently were several pairs of brogues in doeskin suede.
Be it brogue cap, semi-brogue, full brogue or even a two-toned spectator, a man without a good number of brogues in his wardrobe might as well pad around barefoot like Frodo.

JMB

[marcelo]

Hmm, first I ever heard of anyone disliking brogues, let alone hating them. The first pair of bespoke shoes I commissioned John Lobb to make me were full brogue lace-ups in black box calf. Among other shoes ordered subsequently were several pairs of brogues in doeskin suede.
Be it brogue cap, semi-brogue, full brogue or even a two-toned spectator, a man without a good number of brogues in his wardrobe might as well pad around barefoot like Frodo.

JMB

The card bound issue The Best of Chap (2005) is preceded by The Ten Commandments of the Chap, written in Fraktur type. The Second Commandment runs as follows:

“Thou shalt not clad thy feet in footwear that is unavailable in the brogue style”

[NCW]

I was under the impression that black and brogues did not traditionally go well together, being the fitz of a country style and a misguided attempt to make it suitable for city wear. (Brogues per se are of course unimpeachable.)

[Costi]

There is a certain amount of truth to what you say, NCW. Brogues are country shoes and, as such, do not belong in the city. Not with worsted suits or, worse, formal dress, at any rate. Being country shoes, black is not the most appropriate colour - they are best made in brown, so as to accord with out of town clothes. However there are some (predominantly) grey tweeds, or "salt & pepper" tweeds, grey flannels etc. that take a black shoe better than a brown one and here is where the black brogue is supposed to work.
The "hating", if any, is perhaps less against the black brogue itself (although I agree we should choose country clohes that accord with brown shoes and not take city colour schemes of greys and blues to the country and wear them with black brogues), but against contemporary wear of double soled examples with business suits or evening dress by people who don't have clear ideas on their proper use.

[Trey]

Gentlemen:

I have varying shades of brown leather and brown suede brogues and one pair of black brogues. The browns look more appropriate than the black. Nevertheless, rules are made to be broken. I wear my black brogues with a less formal dress outfit - e.g. solid gray suit (not pinstripe or navy solid where black brogues would strike me as being too informal), button down polo collar shirt, less formal tie (e.g. repp stripe, paisley, etc.).

Shipton and Heneage describes one of its black brogues thusly: "this black Derby may seem formal at first glance but its weight encourages in its wearer a certain jauntiness of gait - as if he had just emerged from the divorce courts having sadly lost his partner of twenty years but gained half her income for life." I cannot attest to the above mentioned S&H black brogue's quality, but I did get a chuckle out of the description.

Trey

[NCW]

Sorry. 'Hate' is rather too strong a word, and we are of course not bound by inflexible rules apart from those of our making. We see many AA illustrations here, but might this one be revealing a particularly American influence, which would have been shunned by the 'old guard' in Britain at the time?

[storeynicholas]

Sorry. 'Hate' is rather too strong a word, and we are of course not bound by inflexible rules apart from those of our making. We see many AA illustrations here, but might this one be revealing a particularly American influence, which would have been shunned by the 'old guard' in Britain at the time?

There is mention in Kelsey Grammer's Frasier of wingtips worn in Seattle.
NJS

[angelo]

As further support to what already said by NCW and Costi I would like to underline that in all the illustrations ,shown by Etutee in his recent article Vol.IV N°1 (Aug O8 ) "On Footwear ......AA/Esky "-The Archive of Featured Articles Section ,full brogue shoes were never executed in black but only in different shades of brown.
The original Etutee's comments to the images weer the followings:
1)"The full brogue (technically speaking) should not be executed in black calf but then again we don’t care for these matters in this day and age, do we? "
2)"Note that the full brogue is executed in brown instead of black".


Angelo

[Frog in Suit]

This "black brogue" debate strikes me as a little strange (disclaimer: I am no expert), in as much as I see very little difference in suitability/formality between oxfords and brogues of the same colour, with the obvious exception that one would not wear black brogues with a morning suit (If that is indeed an absolute "no-no". Could someone more knowledgeable please comment?).

Aside from that, I would wear black oxford and black brogues, or half brogues, almost interchangeably with a lounge suit appropriate for city wear (or a navy blazer with grey trousers), and brown oxford or brown brogues almost interchangeably with a tweed suit or tweed coat/grey trousers combination.

I end up wearing black shoes, of any description (oxfords, half brogues, full brogues) ninety per cent of the time (please do not ask for statistical evidence ). I would only wear brown shoes with a tweed suit which, alas, I have very little occasion to wear (I keep wishing for a really rigorous winter, which, in Paris , is not likely to happen).

I would point out that the source of the picture (AA) is American, unless I am mistaken. Could that explain this "hatred of black brogues"? It seems to me that many American forumites (or bloggers) display a decided dislike of black shoes and wear brown shoes with "city" suits.

Frog in Suit

[Cufflink79]

.

This is a great staple item to have in one's wardrobe. When I was a young boy way back in the early 1980's this was one of my first pairs of dress shoes. They were made by Florsheim. Ah, the good old days.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

[Costi]

I think wearing SOME city (not business) suits with brown shoes (plain or cap toe oxfords) is preferrable and probably aesthetically justified in today's world of relaxed rules (within the boundaries of tasteful elegance, I mean) than to wear thick soled black country brogues with business suits, which in my view is a stylistical mismatch - and I am not as keen as others on following strict rules. As for "rus in urbe" I am not sure it was ever meant for shoes.
Where would one wear a black brogue in town? A black shoe is worn either with formal wear (not a no-no with brogues, but a no-no-never), with business suits (where the heavy decoration of the brogue is out if place and does not complement a smooth worsted) or in the evening, if you wear your grey herringbone tweed or flannels on an evening out - but that sounds more like an evening out in the country. In the last situation I think the black brogue works perfectly.

[Frog in Suit]

I think wearing SOME city (not business) suits with brown shoes (plain or cap toe oxfords) is preferrable and probably aesthetically justified in today's world of relaxed rules (within the boundaries of tasteful elegance, I mean) than to wear thick soled black country brogues with business suits, which in my view is a stylistical mismatch - and I am not as keen as others on following strict rules. As for "rus in urbe" I am not sure it was ever meant for shoes.
Where would one wear a black brogue in town? A black shoe is worn either with formal wear (not a no-no with brogues, but a no-no-never), with business suits (where the heavy decoration of the brogue is out if place and does not complement a smooth worsted) or in the evening, if you wear your grey herringbone tweed or flannels on an evening out - but that sounds more like an evening out in the country. In the last situation I think the black brogue works perfectly.

I think we may have to agree to disagree!

I am much less precise than you are in my choice of shoes. I wear, or would wear, black shoes of any description (plain, captoe, half or full brogue) with "city/business" suits (navy or dark grey with stripes), with "city/non business" suits (light grey with faint blue overcheck -- an old Porter & Harding, reference unknown, -- PoW brown/beige check -- J.G. Hardy's Dorchester 1952 -- mid grey with faint stripes and a hint of blue -- Smith Woollens ref 3949, on order -- ). I agree that a black brogue would go better with the three latter ones but I do not think of it as a "rule" that I follow.

I would probably not wear tweeds of any description in the evening (I do not own a flannel suit). My tweed suits are of the "brown/green with other colours mixed in" kind; I would not wear them with black shoes. If I had b & w tweeds, that might be different. I wear a navy blazer (more properly reefer jacket) and grey trousers with black shoes (laced or slip-on). A precision: I am certain that have very many fewer shoes than many other forumites .

Frog in Suit