Thank you for that. Très intéressant!
Cunnington's Dictionary of English Costume says of the surtout:
18th C mainly from 1730's. A long loose overcoat with one or more spreading collars called 'capes'. Also called a wrap-rascal.
19th C from c1820 to 1840's, often called a surtout greatcoat; being an overcoat, SB or DB, made like a frock coat and the forerunner of the top frock.
The Cunningtons also write in The Handbook of English Costume that by the 1850-60s "the surtout had become another word for a frock coat.
In the 1840-50s the surtout was a particular variation of the frock coat "SB or DB, close fitting and reaching down to mid-thigh. The skirts full but plain in front, the corners usually rounded. Four single or pairs of domed buttons, the lowest at waist level."
In the 1830-40s the surtout was "worn as a body coat or as an overcoat. Usually worn closely buttoned up, DB or SB or fly fronted. An outside pocket was common. Velvet collar." They were regarded as the "chief form of undress" (The Whole Art of Dress, 1830) and both surtouts and frock coats were worn without the addition of an overcoat.
In the 1820-30s, "the surtout great coat was close fitting and similar in cut to a frock coat. When there were no outside pockets a small one was sometimes placed in the lining of the skirt for a handkerchief. One form of surtout was the Wellington coat, a kind of half and half great coat and undercoat (ie frock coat) meeting close and square below the knees (1828, Creevery Memoirs)".
So there you go, that description of the surtout as half overcoat, half coat often worn without an overcoat fits well with what you see on the figure on the left of my fashion plate:
As for the paletot, the usage is all over the place. The overcoat with side bodies is a late 19th century thing. In English it is pronounced "pal-ai-tot". Yes, that is a corruption of the French - just as redingote is a corruption of 'riding coat'.
Cuffs on Suit Coat Sleeves
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Thank you, Sator, for sharing your knowledge and documents with us.
Frog in Suit
Frog in Suit
My pleasure. I am amazed how much there is to learn from the past.
So now to bring things back to the opening post. Here are a variety of different styles of collars/lapels and sleeves from Croonborg's Blue Book:
So now to bring things back to the opening post. Here are a variety of different styles of collars/lapels and sleeves from Croonborg's Blue Book:
It is all most interesting - and I am loking forward to the article on Kind Hearts. By the way, Sator, have you come across a series of books called Dress and Insignia Worn at [His] Majesty's Court - they were periodically produced under authority of the Lord Chamberlain and condescend to incredible detail such as the actual size of formed cuffs, number of buttons, placing of buttons on and above the cuff and distances of buttons from the sleeve end and from each other, as well, sometimes, as detail of emblems on buttons etc. - the detail of a lost civilization, which moderns might count as frivolous - butit certainly all hung together.
NJS
NJS
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We find ourselves almost like archaeologists attempting to decipher a lost language. There is nothing frivolous about that, even though such knowledge may not have any practical or utilitarian application.
Frog in Suit
Frog in Suit
Ha! yes - I don't think it's frivolous - I think that it is fascinating and sator seems to have a wonderful collection of material.Frog in Suit wrote:We find ourselves almost like archaeologists attempting to decipher a lost language. There is nothing frivolous about that, even though such knowledge may not have any practical or utilitarian application.
Frog in Suit
NJS
It is interesting to see the frock lapels mixed in there with the others. I thought you always maintained that they were separately cut, while all the coats following (morning coat, &c.) were with a lapel from the same cutting? Is the inner triangular fin of the lapel rolled over from the inside, or a third piece again?
Here is a waistcoat made by tailor (Sam Disano) with a separately cut lapel. Notice the seam running down the middle of the front:
If you turn the lapels over like this you can see how it is constructed better:
I hope that clarifies how this style of lapel is formed.
Here is a dress coat with separately cut lapels, the seam running from E to I:
Dress coats and frock coats were made this way until the Edwardian era, when the whole cut lapels started to come in.
If you turn the lapels over like this you can see how it is constructed better:
I hope that clarifies how this style of lapel is formed.
Here is a dress coat with separately cut lapels, the seam running from E to I:
Dress coats and frock coats were made this way until the Edwardian era, when the whole cut lapels started to come in.
I've found a better photo of the Spy cartoon (the last produced) of Joseph Chamberlain:storeynicholas wrote:There's afamous picture of Edward VII at the races in a topper and turnups and there's a Spy cartoon of Joseph Chamberlain in formal clothes with turn-ups at the Despatch Box . I should just mention that Spy was Sir Leslie Ward who signed himself Spy when the cartoon was done from the life and used other signatures for other cartoons. It might well be that Victorians and Edwardians felt more liberty with such things as cuffs/turn-ups than we do.... My copy of the Joe Chamberlain cartoon is too poor to post.
NJS
[img][img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg55 ... frockc.jpg[/img]
In fact, he standing next to a table, not the despatch box. Turnups on cashmere stripes and frock coat - plus his customary orchid buttonhole.
NJS
NJS[/img]
Returning to the original subjcet of the thread, i.e. turn-ups on suit coats, when doing some window shopping in Jermyn St. last week I noticed that this is something Hackett have introduced on some of their new season suits.
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