Sartorial heros

[OldBill]

I am no expert criminoligist, but I am interested in the subject. What interests me most is that both Mafia crime figures and some of our own home grown gangsters held a polarised duality of moral beliefs. On the one hand they set great store by family and honour, and within this came perhaps their desire to be seen as smart/elegant. On the other hand dapper as they were the likes of John Gotti and the Kray twins were evil in what they were willing to do. I believe this allowed them to compartmentalise their activities so they did not suffer too much with conscience. So yes, smart dressing was an intrinsic part of their 'straight' life.,

I come from a working class London background and there was a definate distinction made between the lower orders on the perifery of crime and being 'one of the chaps'.

I doubt that many people remember it but Tom Bell played a villan in the series 'Out' (the seventies I think if memory serves) and he personified perfectly the sharp suit and the granite like toughness. It was almost as if the smarter the villan dressed the more respect/fear he commanded.

It seems though that even villans are not what they used to be!

[storeynicholas]

Old Bill - Yes, I can see what you mean. I especially like the comment that even the gangsters are second rate these days! I suppose that another difference between the villains of yesterday and those of today is that the old types dealt more with each other (not in relation to 'protection money' obviously, but generally), whereas criminals these days will often prefer to pick on soft targets. I remember reading an interview with Jack Slipper ('of the Yard') who pursued Ronnie Biggs down this way and he said that their backgrounds had been the same and that the only difference between the two of them was that Ronnie had just happened to choose the other of two paths open to them both- choose a trade or public service - navy, army, police etc - or become a villain. Another Eastender (made very good) was, of course, Rosa Lewis, of the old Cavendish Hotel; she had come from a working class background and, years later, world-famous as a great chef and hotelier, she would go to girls' schools in the East End, still talking in her distinctive Old Cockney (bralcony for balcony and art a crahn for half a crown etc) and wearing her furs and jewels, to demonstrate to the girls there just what they could achieve by dedication and hard work.
NJS

[storeynicholas]

Raymond Massey and Noel Coward also deserve places here.
NJS

[Mark P]

Can I second the Frank Sinatra nomination? Always effortlessy cool, in my opinion. Did anyone else wear a shirt and tie better?

[storeynicholas]

Can I second the Frank Sinatra nomination? Always effortlessy cool, in my opinion. Did anyone else wear a shirt and tie better?

There's a film called the Diamond Thieves, starring Pierce Brosnan and Salma Hayek , and in one scene Brosnan orders a cocktail and Brosnan says in reply to the barman's question "would Frank Sinatra have taken an umbrella?" "Not even when it was raining."
NJS

[Cufflink79]

I'd like to add Adolphe Menjou.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

[marcelo]

I'd like to add Adolphe Menjou.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

Adolphe Menjou' autobiography has a quite suggestive title: "It Took Nine Tailors". Has anybody read it?

[Huzir]

Yes, and I can recommend it. He talks about his wardrobe quite a bit.

[storeynicholas]

I'd like to add Adolphe Menjou.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

Adolphe Menjou' autobiography has a quite suggestive title: "It Took Nine Tailors". Has anybody read it?

Is this also a pun on the nine tailors which are part of the passing bell at a man's funeral?
NJS

[Mark Seitelman]

I'd like to add Adolphe Menjou.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

Adolphe Menjou' autobiography has a quite suggestive title: "It Took Nine Tailors". Has anybody read it?

Yes, I read it.

It is out of print. It is a good book. I picked-up a copy through Alibris.

I believe that the title refers to the expression that it takes nine tailors to make a suit.

Menjou devotes one chapter to clothing entitled "Fine Feathers". I believe that each chapter is named after one of his films.

Menjou was well known as an excellent, elegant dresser. Atlhough he provided some paid endorsements for some clothiers, he did not have an ownership interest in any tailors or clothiers.

He was very damanding on his tailors because the slightest imperfection would be magnified on the screen. Menjou started in the silent movie days when a leading man would have to provide his own clothes.

Menjou patronized the leading tailors of his day, and they are mentioned in passing in the book. However, he had particular affection for his L.A. tailor, Eddie Schmidt who took apart some of Menjou's European suits in order to copy them.

[masterfred]

I'd like to add Adolphe Menjou.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

Adolphe Menjou' autobiography has a quite suggestive title: "It Took Nine Tailors". Has anybody read it?

Is this also a pun on the nine tailors which are part of the passing bell at a man's funeral?
NJS

Yes, "nine tailors make a man in Christ." It certainly would have taken a plethora of tailors to outfit Menjou. Have you ever seen pictures of his closets?

[NCW]

I am guessing at least one person in the above discussion has read Dorothy Sayers' The Nine Tailors?

He was indeed superbly dressed, and I think the picture in Dressing the Man sums it up: the vast wall covered in his shoes, including a string of Wellington boots and court shoes.

[Jordan Marc]

Two thoughts from one mind:

Aside from the numerous well-dressed film stars mentioned, there were a handful of impeccably tailored womenswear designers that should be included: Givenchy, who was affectionately known as Le Grand Hubert,
because he was quite tall and always well turned out; Valentino, who is reputed to be tailored by Carecini; Bill Blass, who was tailored by H. Huntsman; and Oscar de la Renta.

Back to film stars. It was not unusual for leading men to pay for their own clothes in pictures from the 1930s through the 1950s, Even though they were under contract to the studios, with wardrobe allowances specified, the stars got to keep the clothes unless they were period costumes, which came from the wardrobe department. Of course a bespoke suit in the 1930s cost a fraction of what it does today. With the demise of the studio system and the everrising cost of production, fewer actors could afford fine clothes. While there are talented designers who can re-create period costumes or find them at costume houses like Bermans, most actors are either taken in hand by the costume designer for a shopping spree at retailers or do a deal with a tailor or dressmaker, ie, throw me the suit or dress for free in exchange for which you can use my image and name for publicity. For big-budget pictures such as the James Bond franchise, the production company pays for the actor's clothes. A minimum of six suits is required for each change of costume. That's just for Daniel Craig. If stunt doubles are needed, even more suits are needed. Suffice to say there isn't much left of the clothes at the end of an action sequence shoot.

JMB

[Frog in Suit]

Two thoughts from one mind:

Aside from the numerous well-dressed film stars mentioned, there were a handful of impeccably tailored womenswear designers that should be included: Givenchy, who was affectionately known as Le Grand Hubert,
because he was quite tall and always well turned out; JMB

Monsieur Hubert de Givenchy is still very much alive.

Frog in Suit

[Jordan Marc]

Quite right, Frog, so he is. Last time I saw Givenchy was years ago in Manhattan. He was walking down Madison Avenue, carrying a good-sized stuffed bear as you might a child, accompanied by a gorgeous assistant whom I occasionally dated. She introduced me to the designer and his friend, Hubert Bear, who was going to have his very own seat on the flight back to Paris that night. Having come from the opening of a pret a porter collection, which I gathered was a success, he struck me as an elegant man with a highly refined sense of design and a marvellous sense of humor. A good fellow!

JMB