Smoking manners

[couch]

I believe RWS has hit the heart of the matter. Unlike drink, smoke affects others nearby. The smoker, to be truly polite, must always be aware that he is introducing a potential irritant whenever he lights up. And to ask permission, while better than simply going ahead, displays little of the self-awareness or sensitivity we demand and take for granted in other areas of civility--it does indeed force the other party into defending, or apologizing for, what they should never be required to defend. One doesn't ask, "May I spit in your presence?"--one simply refrains or goes elsewhere. Sprezzatura and courtesy require that one asses the conditions, the company, and the time before lighting up. Sun Tzu said that a general has already failed if he has to fight a pitched battle, even if he wins; likewise, if the smoker has to ask permission, he has already failed in courtesy.

While I believe that public health care concerns are completely relevant to the etiquette of the matter, since all etiquette should be based on the principle of making others comfortable and treating them as you would wish to be treated, I would merely observe that the regrettable bans on smoking have been widely supported because they remove the occasion for nonsmokers to feel either embarrassed or manipulated when asked, "Do you mind if I smoke?" Thus we get legislated etiquette.

It's been observed many times here and on other related forums that diners have reached new lows in the sloppiness with which they dress in restaurants. The same thoughtlessness obtains with regard to smoking, cell phone use, and other intrusive behavior. I usually try simply to ignore the intrusions in good spirit. Sometimes it's not possible.

I'm not wealthy, and as a single man I sometimes entertain at restaurants. I have been at times in my life a student of wines, and bought a few good things when I could. Last year I entertained a couple of distinguished visiting scholars (and gourmands) at a restaurant whose chef created a bespoke menu around two bottles of '72 Vega Sicilia Unico from my cellar backed up by some top modern Riberas. These rare wines of course needed time in the decanter after I opened them. When someone at an adjacent table lit up a cigarette (while they were still eating!) I had no hesitation in asking him to extinguish it and explained why. I offered him a taste of the wine when it had opened up, in compensation for his sacrifice. He rose considerably in my estimation by cheerfully extinguishing his cigarette and gracefully declining my offer. Nevertheless, just the prospect of having nursed those bottles for over twenty-five years only to have them thoughtlessly destroyed required several minutes to recover from (so as you see, my own sprezzatura is far from perfect). Fortunately the quality of the company, the wine, and the food soon led to a delicious and memorable evening.

There is now a smoking ban in Philadelphia in public spaces including restaurants, though exceptions are made for bars and private clubs, so plenty of smoke-friendly venues exist. But I must say I'm glad that if I raid my remaining '82 clarets to be uncorked away from home, I won't have to worry about a repeat of that close call--or worse.

[Frog in Suit]

I think I remember reading in Proust somewhere (he would not have made it up out of whole cloth) about a man of good manners who, when strolling or riding in the Bois, would fling away his barely-lit cigar (not an inexpensive one) on first catching sight of a lady of his acquaintance.

That was a long time ago.....

Frog in Suit

[marcelo]

I think I remember reading in Proust somewhere...

Proust might have written an even more extensive work, had he abstained from Madeleines and concentrated, instead, in the evanescent memories associated with the pleasures provided by a good cigar…

[storeynicholas]

I think I remember reading in Proust somewhere...

Proust might have written an even more extensive work, had he abstained from Madeleines and concentrated, instead, in the evanescent memories associated with the pleasures provided by a good cigar…

Gosh, if he had and I were to read it (slowly), I would have to forget my own present and forego my own future to finish it!
NJS

[storeynicholas]

I believe RWS has hit the heart of the matter. Unlike drink, smoke affects others nearby. The smoker, to be truly polite, must always be aware that he is introducing a potential irritant whenever he lights up. And to ask permission, while better than simply going ahead, displays little of the self-awareness or sensitivity we demand and take for granted in other areas of civility--it does indeed force the other party into defending, or apologizing for, what they should never be required to defend. One doesn't ask, "May I spit in your presence?"--one simply refrains or goes elsewhere. Sprezzatura and courtesy require that one asses the conditions, the company, and the time before lighting up. Sun Tzu said that a general has already failed if he has to fight a pitched battle, even if he wins; likewise, if the smoker has to ask permission, he has already failed in courtesy.

While I believe that public health care concerns are completely relevant to the etiquette of the matter, since all etiquette should be based on the principle of making others comfortable and treating them as you would wish to be treated, I would merely observe that the regrettable bans on smoking have been widely supported because they remove the occasion for nonsmokers to feel either embarrassed or manipulated when asked, "Do you mind if I smoke?" Thus we get legislated etiquette.

It's been observed many times here and on other related forums that diners have reached new lows in the sloppiness with which they dress in restaurants. The same thoughtlessness obtains with regard to smoking, cell phone use, and other intrusive behavior. I usually try simply to ignore the intrusions in good spirit. Sometimes it's not possible.

I'm not wealthy, and as a single man I sometimes entertain at restaurants. I have been at times in my life a student of wines, and bought a few good things when I could. Last year I entertained a couple of distinguished visiting scholars (and gourmands) at a restaurant whose chef created a bespoke menu around two bottles of '72 Vega Sicilia Unico from my cellar backed up by some top modern Riberas. These rare wines of course needed time in the decanter after I opened them. When someone at an adjacent table lit up a cigarette (while they were still eating!) I had no hesitation in asking him to extinguish it and explained why. I offered him a taste of the wine when it had opened up, in compensation for his sacrifice. He rose considerably in my estimation by cheerfully extinguishing his cigarette and gracefully declining my offer. Nevertheless, just the prospect of having nursed those bottles for over twenty-five years only to have them thoughtlessly destroyed required several minutes to recover from (so as you see, my own sprezzatura is far from perfect). Fortunately the quality of the company, the wine, and the food soon led to a delicious and memorable evening.

There is now a smoking ban in Philadelphia in public spaces including restaurants, though exceptions are made for bars and private clubs, so plenty of smoke-friendly venues exist. But I must say I'm glad that if I raid my remaining '82 clarets to be uncorked away from home, I won't have to worry about a repeat of that close call--or worse.

Dear Couch - I think that you have assessed the balance and set it out and plainly see the point that manners should remain a social custom; although I also think that we all accept that the problem is that courtesy is largely in decline.
NJS

[Frog in Suit]

I think I remember reading in Proust somewhere...

Proust might have written an even more extensive work, had he abstained from Madeleines and concentrated, instead, in the evanescent memories associated with the pleasures provided by a good cigar…

I think "pauvre petit Marcel " (not Marcelo!) had a weak chest (he had bad asthma from childhood) and probably never smoked in his life. I think his parents/doctors may have fumigated his room with a view to relieve him, which today seems like a strange remedy. Surprisingly (how medicine had evolved since then!) he was given beer for his asthma....He died while still fairly young.

Off to London in the a.m., if Eurostar can accomodate me. I don't think I shall have time for even one beer. I shall try to leave early and come back early and do my errands on the run.

Frog in Suit

[storeynicholas]

Anyway, this thread has got our keyboards smoking! Enjoy the Great Wen, FiS!
NJS

[Costi]

A paradox: the scent of good tobacco is very pleasant - indeed many perfumes rely on it; it is tobacco SMOKE that divides society in two (those who divide society in two and those who don't ).
Chewing tobacco and snuffing it never raises any objections from others, does it?

[marcelo]

The rule which says that one should never speak with one’s mouth full is frequently flouted amongst those who indulge themselves in the practice of chewing tobacco. Snuffing, on the other hand, seems to have had in bygone days an important social function , since one would not enjoy a pinch without offering it in advance to all gentlemen nearby.

[storeynicholas]

The rule which says that one should never speak with one’s mouth full is frequently flouted amongst those who indulge themselves in the practice of chewing tobacco. Snuffing, on the other hand, seems to have had in bygone days an important social function , since one would not enjoy a pinch without offering it in advance to all gentlemen nearby.

This recalls a scene which I once witnesed in a restaurant (and would really rather forget): a man was eating, drinking, smoking and tallking just about simultaneously...
NJS

[Guille]

I wrote a series of rules for cigar smokers on another thread about rules when smoking (can't remember the name). Anyway, I never smoke in crowded places or closed places where there are kids, elderly, or ill people. I nearly always smoke whiles walking in a park or in the woods, where it doesn't affect anybody. When I smoke in a closed space, I always open the windows (or ask to do so) and I have in mind the situation/occasion - whether it's favourable for me to smoke or not. The only crowded occasions were I may smoke are parties, and only if I see at least a noticeable percentage of the people are smoking. And even with these strict rules, I normaly abstain and nearly always smoke either in parks or in my house.

[Costi]

I think his parents/doctors may have fumigated his room with a view to relieve him, which today seems like a strange remedy.

Papier d'Armenie is still used today not only to neutralize odours, but also to disinfect the air.

[Bishop of Briggs]

Monica Lewinsky may have her own rules.

[storeynicholas]

I think his parents/doctors may have fumigated his room with a view to relieve him, which today seems like a strange remedy.

Papier d'Armenie is still used today not only to neutralize odours, but also to disinfect the air.

Some schools, long ago used to encourage smoking pupils in the belief that smoking warded off cholera. I am sure that the belief was mistaken!
NJS

[storeynicholas]

Monica Lewinsky may have her own rules.

Does she use a guillotine or a piercer? Actually, I have alays thought that Kipling's quip could easily be turned around....
NJS