Cigar bands - on or off?

[storeynicholas]

I can't think of anywhere that I used to go in London where it was a problem

Well, I can assure you that for the majority of the population it was a problem in every pub, bar and restaurant in the country. Consider this simple analogy. You and your wife are enjoying dinner in your favourite restaurant, or a drink in your favourite pub or bar. Mid-way through the evening the couple next to you decide that they want to enjoy some music and produce, at their table, a portable stereo, whereupon they proceed to play moderately loud hip-hop music. Would you think this was not a problem? Would you and your wife continue happily with your evening notwithstanding that you are now constantly distracted by the irritating racket coming from 4 feet away?

Interesting to meet The Voice of The People. Especially when it is a smoker who wants smoking on its own terms. I thought that Tony Blair had retired. Still, it is reassuring to know that the spirit of tendentious, dictatorial self-righteousness - which drove us to the other side of the world is alive and well if only to demonstrate that we certainly made the right decision; especially when I see the epitome of that spirit crashing through the virtual door of this thread, in a virtual raid on a small group of a once happy breed harmlessly discussing a point of detail on cigar smoking, without a scent of actual smoke in the air.

Such nonsense as you paint is totally inconceivable in any of our favourite haunts from Fowey to Mayfair. Moreover, my point is that we used not to go into dives where you would be squashed up against another table. I recognize that a great many establishments actually offer as entertainment the kind of music which does not appeal to us. Accordingly, we just didn't go to those places - but we would not seek to stop the music and other people's fun. As for the rest - I entirely agree with Bishop of Briggs. It also amuses me no end to see the Fleet Street split in the reporting of the consequences of the smoking ban: on the one hand there are the health freaks, who joyously report that a record number of people have quit smoking since the ban and the realists who report that the pub and restaurant trades have been hit (falling trade, closures and job losses amongst the very people the ban was supposed to protect). However, what the health freaks overlook is the fact that the price of an ordinary packet of cigarettes in the UK is now - what - how far over £5.00 - and smoking has probably become unaffordable to many people for whom even the labour Sec of State, Dr John Reid pleaded at the time - as smoking was one of their few simple pleasures? But no!! bring on the Jack Boots and let's kick them into line!! And if you do it in the name of the Majority of The People - why it may not be long before you can seek out the
sans culottes and bring on Madame G and the Tumbrels - even if they are nowadays just a band playng VERY LOUD hip-hop -whatever that may be.
NJS

[pvpatty]

For what it's worth I am just watching 'Lost in Translation' and notice that Bill Murray is smoking a cigar with the band on.

[marcelo]

I have just posted the message bellow in a thread in the “Anonymous Question and Answer” (to match or not to match?, page 2), but I think the present thread would be no less appropriate. Pardon me please for the repetition.

Here are three pictures of Edward VIII (Edward Fox) in the TV series “Edward & Mrs. Simpson” (1978) donning a – in my opinion – beautiful black smoking jacket. Guests to the King are: Winston Churchill (Wensley Pithey) and Walter Monckton* (Nigel Hawthorne) There is a previous scene where He wears the same garment having PM Baldwin as a guest.

Giving the function of a smoking jacket, I assume that the sleeves are always long enough to encompass the shirt cuffs. But it had not occurred to me that a smoking jacket may well be adorned with a handkerchief. No cigar bands are visible this time. But what are they drinking in addition to coffee – some Vintage Armagnac?





*Who Walter Monckton was : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2702371.stm

marcelo

[Aristide]

Until some time in mid-2005, cabinets (50) of Cuban cigars (with a few exceptions) were packaged unbanded, if I recall correctly.

[sartorius]

I have said before, and I say again, that I don't like other people's smoke in my face

I see then, NJS, that we are very much in agreement. And this is of course the very nub (dare I say the butt?) of the problem. Smokers tend to be "in your face" wherever they are. As I said in an earlier post, I am a part-time smoker myself. But I have to say that having tolerated smoke filled pubs and restaurants for years (and having not had a strong view on the question of a ban at the time), I now feel that the absence of smoke has made a huge and positive difference. Clearly many feel that the ban goes too far in failing to provide dispensation for certain establishments where smokers might wish to congregate. Unfortunately, the irrefutable risks to health trumped all claims for dispensation. It is no use whining when you simply lost the argument.

[storeynicholas]

I have said before, and I say again, that I don't like other people's smoke in my face

I see then, NJS, that we are very much in agreement. And this is of course the very nub (dare I say the butt?) of the problem. Smokers tend to be "in your face" wherever they are. As I said in an earlier post, I am a part-time smoker myself. But I have to say that having tolerated smoke filled pubs and restaurants for years (and having not had a strong view on the question of a ban at the time), I now feel that the absence of smoke has made a huge and positive difference. Clearly many feel that the ban goes too far in failing to provide dispensation for certain establishments where smokers might wish to congregate. Unfortunately, the irrefutable risks to health trumped all claims for dispensation. It is no use whining when you simply lost the argument.

First of all, tobacconists' premises are, despite the fact that they have employees, exempt from the ban - so it is not total (not quite, anyway). It is absurd that occasional smokers of cigars may not use the so-called smoking rooms of clubs in which to smoke - there is minimal exposure of empoyees to smoke as they can bring the cigars and any drinks and retire. Same goes really for pubs and bars - smoking areas with reasonable ventilation. I don't regard myself as having lost any argument - we left the UK before the ban had effect (and have not yet returned for the shopping which is becoming urgent). It is just that it is symptomatic of the the increasing illiberality of modern governments - just like the 'ban' on handguns - all the perfectly law-abiding pistol club members surrendered their legally held weapons and gave up a pleasant passtime because of one lunatic in Maidenhead and another in Dunblane (representing failures in the then system for gun control). A knee-kerk reaction to gun ownership did not affect illegally held guns; plainly. History has also since taught us that nutters out to kill find other means, such as knives - or even their fists and feet. Here smoking in public is not a problem because it is warm and often dry (unlike in the UK), and many people more or less live outside. Accordingly, I'm all right Jack - no one else's smoke in my face and I smoke if I wish, without inflicting it on anyone else. However, it appalls me to think that, in the UK, there are jobs created to regulate smoking when you have daily reports of the breakdown of law enforcement for serious criminal activity. That's all that I mean: the over-regulation of the law-abiding to try to demonstrate that government has not lost control of serious criminals - as well, by the way, of the economy - and there are more important issues to address than smokey atmospheres from tobacco when mankind is otherwise, busily engaged in destroying the planet with more serious noxious fumes.
NJS

[sartorius]

it is symptomatic of the the increasing illiberality of modern governments

This seems to me a common misconception, in similar vein to the post earlier on this thread which claims that the smoking ban has caused many pubs to close down.

Clearly the ban is not popular with those who regularly used to visit pubs for the primary purpose of smoking. But what those objectors don't often acknowledge is that theirs is not the only interest at stake. I read in the press recently one of the directors at Whitbread saying that their staff are much happier since the ban and they are now also seeing more families. More and more pubs serve food these days (and good food at that) and if families are coming through the doors I'm sure they're happy about losing a few smokers along the way.

The argument about pubs closing because of the ban is also misguided. The ones that have closed are the ones that have failed (in common with all those long disappeared bsepoke tailors we were discussing recently) to adapt to changing economic and social factors. We are all drinking more than we used to, so pubs ought to be booming. And most are now owned by large breweries with deep pockets. The pubs which have closed are the ones which were on the way down long before smoking was outlawed.

[storeynicholas]

it is symptomatic of the the increasing illiberality of modern governments

This seems to me a common misconception, in similar vein to the post earlier on this thread which claims that the smoking ban has caused many pubs to close down.

Clearly the ban is not popular with those who regularly used to visit pubs for the primary purpose of smoking. But what those objectors don't often acknowledge is that theirs is not the only interest at stake. I read in the press recently one of the directors at Whitbread saying that their staff are much happier since the ban and they are now also seeing more families. More and more pubs serve food these days (and good food at that) and if families are coming through the doors I'm sure they're happy about losing a few smokers along the way.

The argument about pubs closing because of the ban is also misguided. The ones that have closed are the ones that have failed (in common with all those long disappeared bsepoke tailors we were discussing recently) to adapt to changing economic and social factors. We are all drinking more than we used to, so pubs ought to be booming. And most are now owned by large breweries with deep pockets. The pubs which have closed are the ones which were on the way down long before smoking was outlawed.

You are so convinced of your own arguments and, evidently, so well like the government of the nation, that it would be pointless (and even unkind) further to try to peddle my own perspective - especially since I am practically unaffected by it all. However, I find it most Interesting to read your note of pride in the fact that, despite the burgeoning and problematic booze culture of modern Britain, you are all drinking more and more and that children are being introduced to the pleasures of booze and pub grub at the youngest possible age - all, I am sure, compounding the healthfulness of the 'smoking ban' - as well as introducing a useful early appreciation of the elegant life.
NJS

[sartorius]

I find it most Interesting to read your note of pride in the fact that, despite the burgeoning and problematic booze culture of modern Britain, you are all drinking more and more

I expressed neither pride nor censure. I was simply observing that we are drinking more as a nation.

...and that children are being introduced to the pleasures of booze and pub grub at the youngest possible age

Again, I said nothing of the sort. My point was simply that public houses have changed.

When I was a child, children were barred from pubs full stop. If you were lucky, your parents could have a quiet word with the landlord and if you promised to sit in the corner in silence, your presence might be tolerated for an hour as an indulgence. Thankfully, pubs these days are far more democratic and liberal and the culture of pubs more akin to the continental approach. Licensing laws have been relaxed. Children are welcome. You may enjoy an excellent meal (some pubs even have michellin stars). The atmostphere is clear and the wine quite often drinkable (thanks to the new world for that). An altogether more agreeable experience than the dingy, fuggy, felt-upholstered nightmare of yesteryear, with chicken-in-a-basket offered on sunday afternoons if you were lucky!

[storeynicholas]

Thankfully, pubs these days are far more democratic and liberal and the culture of pubs more akin to the continental approach.


with chicken-in-a-basket offered on sunday afternoons if you were lucky!

(1) is untrue if you are a smoker. Is "the continental approach" the civilized approach, meaning that there isn't glass and blood on the pavement at closing time, blokes barking and birds and police sirens wailing? Crikey, Blighty must have changed.


(2) chicken - is that what it was? I always thought that it was scampy.


NOTICE
The new owners of the Freehouse, formerly known as the Rising Sun, Clapham, London, SW, namely Stephen and Melanie Marjoram (pronounced 'March'), proudly announce that, with effect from 1st October 2008, this house will be known as the Rising Souffle, in recognition of a change of emphasis in catering styles and client profiling - not to mention the search to be the first modern British pub to hold the coveted prize of 3 Michelin stars. 35 year old Stephen Marjoram, a former stockjobber by day and part-time DJ at London's Ministry of Sound one night a week, has also decided that Mah Jong will replace dominoes and Backgammon will replace darts. "Out with the old and in with the new!" he proclaims (presumably referring to the ages of the 'clients' which he expects to attract), as Melanie prepares the ground for the first weekly evening courses on the Laura Ashley's Design Concept, which is to replace the regular Quizz Night. Opening night will begin with the ritual smashing of the old Rising Sun ashtrays and the individual barring for life against the elderly regulars (including 93 year old Wilfred Barnett) for daring to oppose the government's ban on smoking in public houses and for having the insolence to suggest that 'mild and bitter' alternatves should still be offered instead of the 'exclusive' raft of New World Wines which Stephen and Melanie (do call us Steve and Mel) have ordered by random mixed case from Ballistic Wine Warehouses. Seeking objective justification, Melanie explains: "We need the old 'Snug' where these fossils have hung out for decades as a serving area for the new open-plan restaurant" where, despite the character Dowd's observation in the play film Harvey that no one ever takes anything small into a bar, children as young as two and a half will be positively encouraged....
NJS

[Frog in Suit]

"Mild and bitter"? Can one still find mild ale anywhere in the UK? On the plus side, I would hazard a guess that the Campaign for Real Ale has encouraged the production of excellent local brews so one is not limited to Watney's or other industrial products.

Steve and Mel (NJS: what an excellent description, too true to life, I fear .) make me shudder.....

Frog in Suit

[storeynicholas]

Last time that I looked (but that was a while ago now), mild ale was still available - as for Steve and Mel - they have asked me to circulate some of their prospective client profile forms - as entry to their Sunday luncheons is soon likely to be by invitation only - and, a small tip - just make sure that you have 'flossed' before attending the door, because poor dental hygiene is a bar to entry, in any event.
NJS

[sartorius]

"Mild and bitter"? Can one still find mild ale anywhere in the UK?

Depends what you mean by "mild". Most pubs still offer beer at around 3%. Mind you, anything less than that and you begin to wonder what the point is.

I would hazard a guess that the Campaign for Real Ale has encouraged the production of excellent local brews so one is not limited to Watney's or other industrial products

All the pubs where I live (south west London) offer real ale, and most have a guest ale which changes every week.

Is "the continental approach" the civilized approach, meaning that there isn't glass and blood on the pavement at closing time, blokes barking and birds and police sirens wailing? Crikey, Blighty must have changed

The last time I saw glass and blood on the pavement at closing time was when someone fell over on boat race day - happily he was helped to his feet by two elderly gentlemen and a delightful polish barmaid, who was only too pleased to be able to practice her english by asking him if he was hurt.

"Out with the old and in with the new!" he proclaims (presumably referring to the ages of the 'clients' which he expects to attract),

The clientele at my local boozers range from 8 to 80 (Humphrey Lyttleton, who died recently aged 90-odd, was a regular at the Bulls Head and was still playing trumpet in the house jazz band right up until the end). Happily we are inclusive enough to embrace old and young alike - even dogs are welcome. Of course the atmosphere does generally improve if you can avoid the crotchety old souls with nothing better to do than moan about how great everything used to be ...

[storeynicholas]

I started this thread out of interest to know what members' practices are with cigar bands. Nothing to moan about there - until you come along, Sartorius, and start moaning about smoking. My moaning back is really that I dislike the prevalent, coercive, priggish, self-righteous attitudes in the UK - as voiced by you - and supported (as they are) with didactic (even dictatorial), and tendentious arguments; all adding up to a sickening heap of smug self-satisfaction with the society in which you appear to thrive: a society which somehow combines an obsessive over-regulation of the minutiae of living with a decadent disregard for what really matters - such as the exercise of personal Freedom. But, as I say to one of my best friends, who shares your views, I tell you what, you stay over there and I will split my time between Rio de Janeiro and Marrakech.

By the way Mild refers to the type of brew, not necessarily to the strength - it is not insipid bitter. The fact that you do not know what it is suggests that, as feared, Steve and Mel have already largely taken over. That you don't care might, from your approach, seem to be axiomatic - but I have something of a fear that you just don't realize that they have taken over. It brings to mind George Sanders' excellent performance in a 1960s film called Village of the Damned which, if you have not seen it, I strongly recommend both as entertainment and as a caution against complacency.
NJS [/b]

[sartorius]

I started this thread out of interest to know what members' practices are with cigar bands. Nothing to moan about there - until you come along, Sartorius, and start moaning about smoking ... By the way Mild refers to the type of brew, not necessarily to the strength - it is not insipid bitter. The fact that you do not know what it is suggests that, as feared, Steve and Mel have already largely taken over

Forgive me, but I thought the LL was a forum for debate, criticism and, above all, civility. Perhaps I can encourage you to re-read your own thread? You will notice that it was you who first started moaning about the prohibitions of great western democracy. You then charicatured the UK with an anecdote about a fictional phychiatrist farting in a taxi. I was simply responding to what you had already said. I would hope to be afforded the right to reply, and indeed to be spared gratuitous and unmerited imputations of ignorance. I would expect also that someone with such evidently strident views on freedom and liberty would be willing to countenance a contrary view?